Public Safety Committee on Dec. 5th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

I call the meeting to order.

I will request the media to please stop recording. Thank you.

Welcome to meeting number 134 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

I'd like to remind participants of the following points.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Members, please raise your hands if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

The committee is resuming its study of electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by agents of the Government of India, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on October 22, 2024.

I'd like to welcome our witness today. As an individual, we have Patrick Brown, mayor of Brampton, by video conference.

I will now invite Mr. Patrick Brown to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

[Patrick Brown, Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual]

Thank you, Iqwinder.

I want to say, first of all, that I was invited previously to come before this committee, and I declined previously because my focus is not on revisiting the 2022 Conservative leadership race, but on my job as mayor of Brampton. It's a very busy job. I don't have an interest in revisiting partisan debates. My focus is on the progress of the city that I lead. Even today, we had a region of Peel budget meeting, so it is difficult to add new work to the schedule, but I respect the committee process. I respect the summons that was issued, and I'm here today to answer any questions you may have.

I don't believe I have a lot to add to this discussion, and frankly, part of my concern about participating was that.... I know how the committee process works in Ottawa. I was an MP for three terms and spent almost nine years in Ottawa. I know that at committee, every party has their own agenda. The Liberal Party will have an agenda. The Conservative Party will have an agenda. The NDP will have an agenda. The Bloc will have an agenda.

There is a commission on foreign intervention, the Hogue commission, and if I had been asked to testify there, I would have. My concern about being brought into a partisan environment is that it is not something I'm interested in engaging in. Municipal politics, municipal public service, is non-partisan. Right now, we have a productive working relationship with the Government of Canada, which is Liberal, and with the Government of Ontario, which is Conservative, and we have a lot of exciting projects that we're embarking upon, so I don't really want to get drawn into partisan debate.

At the same time, I understand that it's important to guard our democracy against foreign intervention, and if there is something that I can add today that would be helpful, I would be happy to answer questions. I've already made some comments in the media about why I felt there wasn't much I could add, but I'm here to answer your questions if needed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

That's great. Thank you.

I note that you were an MP for several terms and you're very familiar with the rules of committee and Parliament. I would like to remind you that, while we did start a bit late because of votes, you are to remain in attendance until duly discharged, which is what the Notice Paper said as well.

We'll start with the first round of questions.

Ms. Dancho, you have six minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mayor Brown, for being with us today.

As I'm sure you've seen, and certainly as your statement would confirm, there have been some wild allegations about the Conservative Party leadership race concerning your campaign and other things. I'd like to ask you, right off the top, whether you believe foreign interference influenced the final outcome of the 2022 Conservative leadership race.

[Patrick Brown]

I don't believe foreign intervention affected the final outcome of the Conservative leadership race. I believe that Pierre Poilievre was successful in that race because he signed 300,000-plus memberships. I don't believe acts of foreign intervention affected that result.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Brown.

You alluded in your remarks here today, but also in your statement, to feeling that there's a bit of politicization going on at this committee concerning foreign interference and India. I would agree with that. This is quite a serious issue, of course. There are allegations, as you well know, that a foreign government allegedly conspired to murder Canadian citizens on Canadian soil. It's a very serious and devastating matter for those communities, and a serious affront to our sovereignty.

Now we have a situation where you have been called—and I would agree—for political reasons. Can you comment on them?

[Patrick Brown]

I'd say first of all that I had many residents who were aghast, alarmed and scared when the RCMP had their press conference and released details about the extrajudicial killing in Surrey. It certainly is reason to investigate foreign intervention.

I think my commentary about Justice Hogue's commission and a parliamentary committee, to distinguish between one, which is in a non-partisan setting.... Committees, by their nature, as I remember from my time in Ottawa, very much have a partisan agenda about them. It's why when I was given the choice to attend, I said no, that I was going to focus on my job as mayor of Brampton.

Because a summons was issued, I'm aware of my legal obligations and I'm here to answer questions, but that was my apprehension. I don't want to be brought into a partisan debate on Parliament Hill.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Conservatives supported going forward with the study and supported your invitation, but what we did not support was politicizing this accountability tool at committee. I agree with a lot of what you've said, though I am quite concerned that this has politicized a very serious issue.

I know, Mayor Brown, that you represent a community that has many Sikh Canadians. You must have a good sense of the mood on the ground there. Can you enlighten the committee on what impact the past few months have had on them? We'd like to hear for the record—I think it would be useful for our committee—the impact that this has had.

[Patrick Brown]

I think there is a concern in Brampton—and I'm sure that's the case in other big, diverse cities—about foreign intervention and their safety. Obviously I'm concerned about that. I want everyone to feel safe and secure in Canada. We've seen a level of genuine fear. It really was heightened with the incidents that happened in Surrey.

I would note that when that incident happened, that extrajudicial killing, members of the Sikh community came to our council and stated rather unequivocally that they felt it was an act of foreign intervention and that they had received a duty to warn—some of them—which was about their own safety. For that reason, we wrote a letter to Public Safety Canada at the time, asking for an investigation into whether there was foreign intervention. I think the suspicion confirmed by the public safety minister and by the RCMP many months later was one that our community was feeling very early on.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

We've heard that from witnesses in testimony as well. They've been sounding the alarm in the community for many years. They have had duties to warn and have had no other supports, unfortunately. Again, I'm quite concerned about the impact that this has had on the community. I think we all are, frankly.

Regarding your presence here today, are you under the impression that...? You outlined it really well. The Justice Hogue commission is a very serious affair. The committee is now looking into this and it's supposed to be a serious matter, yet it seems the Liberals have politicized it. Do you feel that the Liberal government has perhaps failed to protect the Sikh community and others from foreign interference?

[Patrick Brown]

I'm not going to wade into a partisan assessment. My goal in the public service municipally is to be non-partisan so that I can work with everyone in the best interests of Brampton.

What I would say is that I think governments at all levels of all partisan stripes could do more to address foreign intervention. I don't think it is a failure of one party or one level of government. I believe we can all do more to guard against foreign intervention and protect our residents.

I include the municipal government in that. We've had to take some steps recently to protect places of worship from conflict. I think we all need to learn from the news, from the incidents and from the revelations that have been presented before us, and we need to see what we can do to protect our residents.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Mr. Brown, I know that you're taking this matter very seriously, as well as the impact it has had on your community and Sikh Canadians across the country. The Conservatives are deeply concerned about the impact it has had and about the gross affront it has been to our national sovereignty. We feel that the federal government, the Liberal Party, has failed to prevent it, and that's on them.

Thank you, Mr. Brown.

I believe my time is up, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

Ms. Damoff is next for six minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Mayor Brown, thank you so much for joining us today. As a former municipal councillor, I hear you on municipal politics being non-partisan.

I want to start off by making clear that you were invited and summoned to the committee not because we think there was any wrongdoing whatsoever on your part, as was implied by the Conservative Party. We actually heard that you may have been a victim of foreign interference. That's why we felt it was important for you to be here today to share your testimony.

You may also be under an NDA with the Conservative Party. As you know from your many years as an MP, when you come to committee, you are protected by parliamentary privilege and are expected to tell the truth. I know I don't have to remind you of that, but I sincerely want to thank you for being with us here today.

In the statement you put out, you talked about the inquiry that's going on. You noted that the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians cited India's alleged interference in a Conservative Party of Canada leadership race. I'm just wondering if you can speak to your understanding of that interference. Do you believe it was your campaign that was targeted?

[Patrick Brown]

I'll share a few comments.

First of all, I'm not under any NDA that prohibits me from speaking. I certainly understand my obligations here today.

I believe a level of foreign intervention has been around for a long time. I don't believe that foreign intervention altered the outcome of the 2022 Conservative leadership race. If you look at past leadership races and the number of memberships sold to be successful, with this leadership race, the level of memberships sold was incomprehensible compared to any other time in modern history. I think that's what dictated the results, not foreign intervention.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm sorry. Mr. Brown, I hear you on it not impacting the outcome, but I think all of us would agree that if there was any kind of interference in the campaign whatsoever, we would all be troubled by it.

Do you think it was your campaign that was targeted?

[Patrick Brown]

I think there's always going to be a level of foreign intervention in every political party, and I think it's fair to say that the Government of India states its opinions. There are a number of issues that I took a position on that the Government of India certainly wasn't a fan of, from the Citizenship (Amendment) Act to the farmers' protest to the vigil for Deep Sidhu, but I don't think any commentary offered by the Indian government affected the result.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

How do you know, Mayor Brown, that they weren't fans of your activity?

[Patrick Brown]

I don't think India or its representatives are ever shy about making their positions clear. Not just during the Conservative leadership race but also in my time in public service, they have always been more than blunt in expressing their displeasure when positions are taken that are inconsistent with their national agenda. I don't think 2022 was different from the past instances. Just to illustrate that, I remember—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

You were quite close to Prime Minister Modi at one time. Did the Indian government reach out to you during your leadership campaign with concerns about the positions you were taking?

[Patrick Brown]

I actually think it predates that.

Yes, I have visited India many times. I knew Prime Minister Modi when he was the chief minister of Gujarat. I was a fan of the economic agenda that he undertook in Gujarat.

I had challenges with India starting when the provincial legislature in Ontario recognized the 1984 genocide. As leader of the Conservative Party at that time provincially, I supported that motion. The consulate general and the Canada India Foundation expressed displeasure with that support, that recognition, of 1984. I would hear directly from the consulate general and the Canada India Foundation. They were upset with the position I took. For them to express a position was not new. There have been many other instances like that.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

During the time of your leadership campaign, did anybody from the Indian government reach out to you?

[Patrick Brown]

No, not during the leadership campaign. I think the relationship by that point was already very strained.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Do you have a sense that any of your campaign workers were contacted or were being targeted by representatives of India in Canada?

[Patrick Brown]

I don't believe my campaign workers were contacted by agents of the Government of India.