Evidence of meeting #134 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was campaign.
A video is available from Parliament.
Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
It wasn't the Ontario leadership in 2017. The Ontario leadership was in 2014 to 2015. I think what Mr. Gerretsen was referring to was a nomination campaign.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
That's fair enough. Did you become an unworthy candidate in the eyes of the Indian government in your federal leadership campaign?
Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
I think that's a question you'd have to ask the Indian government. I can't analyze their sentiments.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
In your opinion, though, as you said, your relationship was quite strained. How did you know this unless they expressed it to you?
Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
They certainly didn't express it to me during the leadership campaign. From 2016 to 2022, there were a number of issues that caused friction. I've mentioned those issues already in my responses.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer
Thank you, Ms. O'Connell, but you're a bit over time.
As promised, I'm going to turn the floor over to Mr. Fortin for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Listening to you, Mr. Brown, I can tell that you have a pretty clear idea of what constitutes foreign interference. You drew a distinction between the right people across the country have to express their support or opposition in relation to issues. We are talking about freedom of expression. However, you said that hindering the activities of a temple was not acceptable. Ultimately, it's a form of interference.
At a certain point, you, as the mayor of Brampton, decided to provide funding for the challenge of Quebec's state secularism law, Bill 21. The bill stipulates that the state is secular, that it does not interfere in religious matters, and that all citizens are free to practise the religion of their choice as they see fit. You object to the law. That is your right, as you said, and I agree with you. You are entirely free to do that. However, you decided to wade into the debate and use City of Brampton money to help fund the challenge of a Quebec law.
Wouldn't you say that is a form of interference?
Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
The city of Brampton in the province of Ontario is not a foreign entity. This is a legal challenge occurring in Canada. The legal challenge that will go to the Supreme Court will set a precedent for all Canadians.
I still maintain my opposition to Bill 21.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
You maintain your opposition to the bill, and you say it's not foreign interference. With all due respect, Mr. Brown, I would point out that the City of Brampton is not in Quebec. I don't see how the City of Brampton is affected by what goes on in Quebec.
Am I wrong?
Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
It is very much a concern for the city of Brampton and all Canadians.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
By the same token, the Indian government would be justified in intervening in the Conservative leadership race.
It's the same rationale, is it not?
Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
I think the comparison is preposterous. The notion that foreign intervention is the same as a legal challenge in Canada over the interpretation of the charter on religious freedom—
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
To engage in foreign interference is to meddle in something that does not concern you. Therefore, if the Indian government tries to get you to change your position while you're a candidate in a federal leadership race, I would say the Indian government is meddling in something that does not concern it. It shouldn't be allowed to do that. Similarly, if a Quebec municipality wants to participate in a court challenge in Quebec, that's fine.
Conversely, if an Ontario municipality participates in a court challenge in Quebec, I see it as interference. If you can't see the difference, it makes me wonder whether you're able to do so when Indian authorities are involved. That worries me, but you tell me.
Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
A legal precedent in Canada affects us all. I don't ever want to have a case in Ontario where individuals lose their jobs based on wearing an article of faith. The fact that you can see—
Bloc
Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
It could set a legal precedent in Canada. If the Supreme Court decides to side with Quebec, that precedent affects all of us.
I think it was an atrocious decision that circumvents religious freedom in this country.
Liberal
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mayor Brown, just to recap, we have a reference to a Conservative leadership race in the NSICOP report. Are those five anonymous sources who claim to have been part of your leadership campaign talking about foreign interference?
After your involvement in the leadership campaign was over, did you ever receive a post-mortem briefing from CSIS officials in the months or years following your involvement in the leadership race?
Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
I have not been briefed by CSIS on the 2022 Conservative leadership race.
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
That's good to know. We have taken some legislative steps in the Parliament of Canada with Bill C-70, which will hopefully fix that problem for CSIS in the future.
That leads me to my next question.
I referenced the legislative changes we've put into place that bring the CSIS Act and the Foreign Interference and Security of Information Act up to speed to counter the threat. Looking back, is there anything you wish could have been done differently with these allegations? What kinds of safeguards would you like to see put in place to make sure that political parties and their internal mechanisms are not being affected by foreign interference?
Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
You're asking me a question about how I think you could better safeguard our institutions. I think a starting point would be nominations—
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
I mean just political parties, specifically. Yes, institutions, but....
Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
Yes, political parties and nominations. Nominations in many ridings in this country are where the MP is elected. I think there are a lot of ridings where the general election is not the real campaign; it's the nomination. Increasingly, in nominations, there are fewer candidates approved to run. Sometimes there's only one candidate approved to run.
If Elections Canada ran nominations, that would be an additional safeguard against foreign intervention.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you. I believe that's my time, Mr. Chair.