Public Safety Committee on Dec. 5th, 2024

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you, Mr. Gerretsen.

We will move on now to the third round. It will be Ms. Dancho, then the Liberals and then Monsieur Fortin.

Ms. Dancho, you have five minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Brown, thank you for your testimony so far today.

I know you represent quite a diverse community. To put into my own words what you've said today, you've expressed that there have been anxieties and concerns in that community.

If I'm thinking about foreign interference, I'm thinking about foreign governments intimidating Canadians. We seem to be seeing this from perhaps the Indian government. We're seeing this from the Chinese Communist government. Frankly, many governments seem to be intimidating various Canadians and various diaspora communities. Do you feel the federal government bears any responsibility for the level of interference we're seeing in various communities, including many in Brampton?

[Patrick Brown]

I think that question has been posed in a similar manner already. My response is that I think we can all do more—locally, provincially and federally—to guard against foreign intervention and make sure Canadians feel safe in Canada and are not victims of intimidation or influence.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

What do you think the federal government could be doing, if anything?

[Patrick Brown]

Part of the starting point is a clear education for those who are serving as diplomatic representatives in Canada on behaviour that is appropriate and on behaviour that is inappropriate with the laws we have in Canada. Clearly, there are diplomats who need that education.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

As you well know, we've had a pretty serious situation with allegations that individuals in Canada were murdered in connection with a foreign government, notably India, and among the purposes of why you're here today is the conversation on India. Of course, we had the Prime Minister get up in the House of Commons in quite an unprecedented manner, call out the Indian government and make these allegations. A few months later, the situation seemed to escalate quite considerably when the RCMP provided duties to warn to various individuals. I believe almost a dozen individuals were told their lives were under threat from alleged connections to the Indian government, which was out to get them. We saw this happening in the United States as well.

Objectively, I think the federal government's actions failed to prevent a lot of this, given that it escalated after the Prime Minister took action in the House of Commons. Are you getting the sense that your community is feeling safer over the last few years or less safe?

[Patrick Brown]

Once again, I'm trying not to be drawn into the partisan debates that occur in Ottawa, but I would say there is a sentiment that residents are concerned. Diaspora communities are concerned.

I think it was helpful, though, that the information was put into the public domain. Sometimes you hear diaspora communities say they were targets of foreign intervention and felt helpless. They felt they were being treated as if their allegations were crazy. The fact that it's been brought into the mainstream is helpful. It's helpful that allegations were made public and legitimized.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

What are you hoping to see out of the Justice Hogue commission? Is there anything you think may be helpful for your community or others that are experiencing foreign interference and threats in Canada?

[Patrick Brown]

I know that a lot of the Justice Hogue commission work is done in camera. If there are examples of foreign intervention where foreign actors have subverted our democracy, intimidated Canadians or harassed Canadians, hopefully they're held accountable and we have safeguards put in place to prevent that type of action.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Those are all the questions I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

I have Ms. O'Connell for five minutes.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mayor Brown. I'll follow up on some of your testimony already.

You mentioned that MP Rempel Garner talked to you and relayed a message. In fact, it changed your campaign language. Your explanation, it's my understanding.... My Punjabi is not great, but I know that the change didn't mean Sikh “nation”; it meant Sikh “community”, so the concerns raised did change the outcome of the messaging from your campaign.

You mentioned the “angry phone call” that Michelle Rempel Garner received. Did she express anything about that phone call other than just changing the language from Sikh “nation”?

[Patrick Brown]

When you're a candidate for leadership, being busy is an understatement. When incidents are brought up, you try to deal with them as swiftly as you can.

In that case, Harkirat Dada, a lawyer, and Jaskaran Sandhu were assigned to speak to—

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

I'm sorry. I'm limited on time.

I'm curious about the phone call. Was there anything else expressed in that angry phone call to MP Rempel Garner?

[Patrick Brown]

I was going to say that you should speak to Jaskaran or Harkirat about that. They were the ones who had to spend 45 minutes on the phone going over it.

Like you, I don't speak Punjabi, but it was explained to me by Jaskaran that both terms meant the same thing. We were not diminishing the sentiment of allyship that we were trying to share.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

That's fair enough. Thank you.

Earlier this week in the House, I asked the former caucus chair for your campaign, MP Seeback, about why in March he announced his support for your campaign, then—I believe it was in June—decided to support Pierre Poilievre. That's fine; that's his right, but I asked him why. He said he has been friends with you for over 20 years but that he didn't share your vision for Canada.

Did he ever tell you what part of your vision for Canada he didn't support?

[Patrick Brown]

That's a question you'd have to ask Kyle.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

I did, but did he ever tell you that he no longer...? At one point, he shared your vision for this country. A few short months later, he said that he did not share your vision for the country.

I'm wondering if he ever told you why. In particular, was it anything about your position on things like going to some of these memorials, or other things that, as you said, were upsetting the Indian government? I'm curious as to what he told you.

[Patrick Brown]

He never shared that with me. That would be the quick answer.

One thing Kyle and I talked about a fair bit was my opposition to Bill 21. Being a former Brampton MP, Kyle was also close to some of the communities I work with.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

He never told you why he was leaving.

[Patrick Brown]

He never said it was because of any disagreement on vision, or any foreign lobbying.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

What he said to me in the House the other day about not sharing your vision is, I guess, unfortunately news to you after a 20-year friendship. That's sad, I think, but politics is challenging for friendships like that.

I want to get back to some of the other things that have been stated.

My colleague Mr. Gerretsen brought up the five anonymous individuals. It's fair enough that you may not know who they are, but there was a suggestion that you were on a specific conference call where issues were raised about India's displeasure with your campaign and about concerns over encouraging people to not sell memberships. Are you saying that you were never part of a conference call where these issues were discussed?

[Patrick Brown]

The conference call I was part of related to the use of the term “Sikh nation”, not about selling memberships.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

You mentioned earlier to Mr. Gerretsen regarding the Ontario leadership campaign that the Indian government makes it very known when they don't feel a candidate is worthy. Did you become an unworthy candidate to the Indian government?