Evidence of meeting #136 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fentanyl.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Erin O'Gorman  President, Canada Border Services Agency
Michael Duheme  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Aaron McCrorie  Vice-President, Intelligence and Enforcement, Canada Border Services Agency
Superintendent Mathieu Bertrand  Director General, Serious and Organized Crime and Border Integrity, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Heath MacDonald Liberal Malpeque, PE

Certainly.

4:15 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Erin O'Gorman

On your question about how easy it is to ship them, on occasion, we have seen and seized large quantities in vats that, of course, looked suspicious. What's difficult is that we also see them in smaller containers being shipped through couriers. As we talk to the U.S., it's a collective challenge that we both have with the courier mode. They're being shipped in smaller quantities and they don't register in the same way as some of the large volumes we've been able to seize at the land border.

Heath MacDonald Liberal Malpeque, PE

President O'Gorman, you talked a bit about some of our successes. I know that under the previous Trump administration, there was increased interjurisdictional collaboration through these forums that we just discussed, like the North American drug dialogue and the joint action plan on opioids.

Can you tell us about the successes and take-aways from these international forums? Have these forms continued to meet post-2020?

4:15 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Erin O'Gorman

The North American drug dialogue meeting happened just recently. Our senior official responsible for opioids and fentanyl was there, joined by an executive former frontline officer from our B.C. region, who is sadly quite familiar with them. It's a bit of ground zero for Canada. The two of them went down, along with other colleagues from the Public Safety portfolio.

The discussions are wide-ranging, from waste-water testing to trends, targeting, disruptive efforts, sharing intelligence and harm reduction. They're quite extensive.

Health Canada is also represented there.

Increasingly, they're inviting countries from Europe just to get ahead of what they might be facing, or to help those that are starting to find fentanyl coming into their countries as well.

Heath MacDonald Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you so much.

Chair, I'm not sure how much time I have left.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

You have 16 seconds.

Heath MacDonald Liberal Malpeque, PE

Okay. I'll pass that on, Chair. Thank you.

Thank you to the witnesses.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

Thank you so much.

We'll go now to the Bloc Québécois and Ms. Michaud.

The floor is yours for six minutes.

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all four of you for being with us today. I also want to thank you for the work that you do. We don't do that often enough.

From what I've heard, there's very good cooperation between the Border Services Agency and the RCMP within the Valleyfield detachment, under the direction of Martin Labrecque, I believe, and with the member for Salaberry—Suroît. We know that a number of mayors and prefects from border RCMs are concerned about the situation. So I want to thank you for the work that's being done in this regard and that certainly reassures many people.

The border issue has been on the agenda for a few weeks now. I have in front of me a Radio-Canada article entitled "Ottawa could spend more than $1 billion on the border with the United States." This article pertains to the government's desire to spend a significant amount of money on border protection to allay Donald Trump's concerns and avoid the 25% tariffs that he threatened to impose very recently.

The Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs, Dominic LeBlanc, has said that he intends to increase the number of officers at the border and purchase additional equipment. A number of drones and helicopters have been in the news. As we understand it, details of the plan will be released next Monday in the economic update.

I'd like the RCMP to give us more details about the equipment and the number of officers on the ground. I'd also like to ask them to give us some clarification about comments made in Radio-Canada articles. They reported that, in some cases, only six officers were patrolling the border and there were only a few police cars.

Could you tell us whether the planned investments will enable us to purchase the necessary equipment and increase the number of officers on the ground?

Commr Michael Duheme

First of all, I'd like to say that the $1 billion figure surprises us. Ms. O'Gorman and I had submitted our request, but I wasn't sure what the outcome would be.

Minister LeBlanc also made it clear that he would invest in resources, drones and helicopters. The best approach, in our view, is to rely on technology so that we can react differently. Rather than using humans as "detectors," we can rely on modern technology that can be acquired quickly and yield convincing results. That's what we're advocating for the entire border, from the east coast to the west coast.

With respect to field officers, I'm not aware of the exact number per patrol. However, I can tell you that on several occasions there will be an intensification of operations in the evening, a kind of energetic impact. We work in parallel with U.S. Customs and Border Protection when we do that work, but also on a day-to-day basis. Two days ago we intercepted two people trying to get south of the border. There's very good cooperation in that area.

Having said that, we're really talking about relying on technology to modernize the equipment we have.

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

I know you're already working with technological devices. Tell me if I'm wrong, but there's often cooperation between human beings and technology. For example, a drone is used to track down or obtain certain evidence about a vehicle that we see often and that could be transporting migrants or illegal weapons. You make sure that you have all those images in hand, that you have all the evidence, and then you arrest the person. I don't know if it works that way, but you can tell me.

If you're dealing with migrants who cross illegally—they'll probably just go through there once and try to do it quickly—what's the relationship between technology and human beings? If the drone or helicopter detects a person, family, or group of people crossing the border, is adequate personnel available to ensure a quick response?

Does the RCMP have the necessary tools? Do they need evidence? Do they need a warrant or can doubt alone allow them to intervene if they think that someone has crossed illegally? Do you have the authority to arrest those people without having any evidence against them?

Commr Michael Duheme

First, I'll explain how drones work.

Ms. Michaud, you gave a good explanation; drones are used, and they're also used in cases where the locations are more difficult to access, for example, places that can't be reached with snowmobiles or all-terrain vehicles. In addition, they allow us to notify our American partners if we see movement close to the border.

I think I said it the last time I appeared before this committee, but the offence occurs when they cross the border. That's where the offence occurs. Obviously, the RCMP has the necessary authority to arrest people when it has reasonable grounds to believe that an offence will be committed; this is based on the perception of the officer in the field and the information he or she has.

Lastly, when it comes to the use of technology, we want to marry technology and teams. If technology is deployed, we want to make sure we have the personnel needed to intercept people or warn our American counterparts.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

Thank you, Commissioner.

Thank you.

We'll go to the NDP with Mr. MacGregor for six minutes.

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of you for joining our committee today.

Commissioner, maybe I'll start with you. Would you agree with me that the growing use of synthetic drugs has presented a very real challenge to law enforcement in recent years?

Commr Michael Duheme

I would say that the growing use of synthetic drugs is a challenge.

I see that Mr. Motz and Mr. Shipley have backgrounds as former police officers. We've been fighting the war on drugs for years, years, years and many years. I think the place we should start investing in is the social aspect of deterring people from using drugs.

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

I want to focus on fentanyl in particular. I'm just looking for a ballpark figure. For how many years now in Canada has fentanyl been identified as a drug of major concern because of its potency and how many overdose deaths it's been responsible for?

Commr Michael Duheme

I wouldn't have.... I'll have to ask Mathieu. I wouldn't have an exact date as to when it came—

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

It's been a while now.

Commr Michael Duheme

It's been a while.

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Yes, and its potency has obviously been the issue of concern. Would you agree with me that both Canada and the United States are dealing with crises in our communities from coast to coast? This is a very real problem that both our countries are facing.

Commr Michael Duheme

I would agree, but I will expand that internationally. There are several countries that are dealing with the same problem.

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Yes.

I think it's important for our committee to not just go back a couple of years. We have to put this in the context of this being a problem that our communities have been dealing with for quite some time.

I'd like to turn to the CBSA and maybe to you, Mr. McCrorie, because of your responsibility for intelligence. Do you have any way that you can provide this committee with, roughly speaking, a comparison of the drugs that are entering the United States from the Canada side versus the drugs that are entering the United States from the Mexico side? I mean, looking at those two borders objectively, which one does the United States have to worry about the most?

4:25 p.m.

Vice-President, Intelligence and Enforcement, Canada Border Services Agency

Aaron McCrorie

I don't think we have an existing study, for example, that does that comparison in terms of.... The U.S. would be the best source of information for that data.

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

What kind of seizure numbers do they have at the U.S.-Mexico border versus the U.S.-Canada border? Do you know that?

4:25 p.m.

Vice-President, Intelligence and Enforcement, Canada Border Services Agency

Aaron McCrorie

I will say that Canada is not a significant source of fentanyl in the United States. The vast majority of the fentanyl in the United States, as we understand it, is coming from Mexico.