Public Safety Committee on May 10th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 23 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

We will start by acknowledging that we are meeting on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin people.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. Members and witnesses participating virtually may speak in the official language of their choice. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motions adopted by the committee on Thursday, February 17, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of the rise of ideologically motivated violent extremism in Canada.

With us today are Vidhya Ramalingam, co-founder of Moonshot, and Adam Hadley, executive director of Tech Against Terrorism.

You will each be given up to five minutes for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

Mr. Hadley, you now have the floor for up to five minutes for your opening remarks, sir, whenever you're ready.

[Adam Hadley, Executive Director, Tech Against Terrorism]

Good morning, and many thanks for the invitation to speak at the committee hearing today.

I'm Adam Hadley, executive director at Tech Against Terrorism. Over the next few minutes, I'd like to explain more about who we are at Tech Against Terrorism and what we do, and provide some clarity about our position on some of the discussion points.

Tech Against Terrorism is a not-for-profit based in the U.K. Ours is a public-private partnership. We were established with UN CTED, the counterterrorism executive directorate, in April 2017. Our mission is to work with the global tech sector, in particular smaller tech platforms, to help them tackle the terrorist use of their services while respecting human rights. Our work is recognized in a number of UN Security Council resolutions, including resolution 2354 and resolution 2395. As a public-private partnership, we work with the major democracies—governments such as the Government of Canada, the U.S., the U.K., Australia and New Zealand—alongside the tech sector, which includes big tech and smaller tech platforms.

The reason we focus on smaller technology platforms is that many of these platforms have limited capacity and capability to deal with terrorist use of their services. Our mission is to support these smaller platforms, free of charge, to improve their response to terrorist activity and terrorist content. In particular, over the past two or three years, we've seen a significant increase in migration from the use of very large platforms to smaller ones. This represents a strategic vulnerability in response to the terrorists' use of the Internet.

Tech Against Terrorism monitors over 100 tech platforms on an hourly basis. We also monitor around 200 terrorist-operated websites. Overall, we work with 150 platforms, providing a number of services to help improve their response. We also work alongside other organizations focused on online counterterrorism, such as the Global Internet Forum to Counter Terrorism.

In detail, our work at Tech Against Terrorism focuses on understanding the nature of the threat. This is based on open-source intelligence, in order to understand the detail of how terrorists use particular platforms. We use this intelligence and insight to establish relationships with these platforms, reach out to them and evaluate the extent to which we can provide support.

This results in a mentorship service that we offer free to platforms. The mentorship service is designed to build capacity. We do this alongside the GIFCT. Of note, we've developed some software, called the terrorist content analytics platform, which helps alert small platforms of the existence of terrorist content. The TCAP, the terrorist content analytics platform, has so far been funded by the Government of Canada. This has resulted in 30,000 URLs—individual items of terrorist content—being referred to platforms, with more than 90% of this content on smaller platforms removed. We've also built a knowledge-sharing platform, which is designed to share best practice information and guidance to smaller platforms. We actively work to have terrorist websites removed from the Internet.

I should stress that we focus on violent, Islamist extremist organizations and, of course, the extreme far right. The basis of our work is typically focused on designation. In upholding the rule of law, we believe that designation is a critical mechanism to ensure that platforms remove content in a timely fashion. Therefore, we applaud the Government of Canada for its pioneering work in designating organizations from across the terrorism and violent extremism spectrums.

In summary, we call for governments to focus on the rule of law and how they regulate, with a focus on providing definitional clarity to tech companies so that they can improve their action. We believe that designation is a crucial tool that can be used to help provide that clarity, so that small tech platforms get better at dealing with terrorist activity.

Finally, we would stress that proportionate measures are important. Often, regulation in this area is primarily focused on big tech. We understand the concern here. However, the current threat picture is such that there is a significant amount of terrorist activity from across the spectrum on smaller platforms. Often, regulation fails to take this into account and fails to take into account the nature of adversarial shift—in other words, when terrorist activity changes or adapts according to the measures that are being used to avoid terrorists' use of services.

In summary, many thanks for the invitation to speak today. I look forward to participating in the session.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

I would now invite you, Ms. Ramalingam, to make an opening statement of up to five minutes whenever you're ready.

[Vidhya Ramalingam, Co-Founder, Moonshot]

Thank you, Chair and members of the committee.

My name is Vidhya Ramalingam. Eleven years ago, when a far-right terrorist murdered 77 people in Norway, I led the EU's first intergovernmental initiative on far-right terrorism. It's in that role that I first started working with Public Safety Canada and saw first-hand the resilience and strength of Canadian practitioners working to ensure that no more Canadians take a violent path.

I now lead Moonshot, an organization working with the governments of Canada, the U.S., the U.K., Australia and other global partners to build online prevention capabilities fit for the challenges of the 21st century.

The threat posed by IMVE actors and groups is undoubtedly growing more sophisticated both online and off. Moonshot started studying Canadian engagement with this content on search engines in February 2019. In little over a year, we tracked over 170,000 individual searches for IMVE content across Canada. As Canadians spent more time online as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic and lockdowns, the engagement increased. Searches for far-right content increased 19% weekly during lockdown measures. In Ottawa we tracked a 35% increase after Ontario's state of emergency was declared.

We have seen greater engagement with conspiracy theories. Over a year we tracked over 25,000 searches across Canada for white supremacist conspiracy theories such as the Kalergi plan, the great replacement and white genocide.

In partnership with Public Safety Canada, we also produced the first systematic online study of the Canadian violent incel community online. The Canadian incel ecosystem is spread across both niche and mainstream platforms, including Twitter, YouTube, Telegram and Reddit. Canadian users on incel sites were 65% more likely than global users to post news stories about incels and were especially celebratory of incel violence that occurred in Canada.

However, we are not without tools to respond. Perhaps the greatest challenge for governments today is how to bring our prevention models into the 21st century. We have to intervene where extremist groups are seeking to recruit: online. In 2022, every prevention model needs a robust digital component. This must be delivered safely, ethically and responsibly, with user privacy at its heart.

Our recommendations for Canada are, first, strengthen pre-existing behavioural health and other wraparound services for prevention, specifically mental health support, community outreach as well as adjacent fields such as suicide prevention. Frontline practitioners such as Équipe RAPS and CPN-PREV in Quebec, OPV in Alberta and Yorktown Family Services in Ontario are best positioned to intervene.

Our second recommendation is to adapt the entire suite of prevention services for online delivery. In a 2017 study, Moonshot found that only 29% of Canadian practitioners were using social media in their prevention work. We need to build the digital literacy and capacity to deliver their work online. There are an abundance of online tools and methodologies we can use. For example, from 2019 to 2020, we worked to ensure that every Canadian searching for extremist content online would be offered a safer alternative to terrorist content. We used advertising tools to safeguard approximately 155,000 violent, far-right searches and around 16,000 Daesh and al Qaeda related searches. The natural evolution of this work should see the use of these tools to connect Canadians with prevention services that can work with them to change their paths.

Finally, third, signpost terrorism prevention services such as hotlines, counselling and exit offers online. Evidence shows us that this works. Moonshot found audiences at risk of far-right extremism in the U.S. were 48% more likely than the general public to take up offers of psychosocial support services online. In the last year alone, Moonshot has channelled over 150 individuals at risk of violent extremism across the U.S. into text message counselling sessions via online engagement. Now we're working with the U.S. government to launch state-level models to off-ramp at risk Internet users into local support programs, starting with New York state.

Here in Canada, we need to signpost local services to Canadians engaging with extremist content online. To do this, local providers and networks like CPN-PREV need sustained investment to run interventions, extend their service hours and support the professional and mental well-being of staff. These organizations fill a critical gap in Canada's public safety infrastructure. The government should invest in these models and support efforts to take their interventions online, where their services are needed the most.

Thank you for your time today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Both witnesses were right on time.

I'll now open the floor up to our first round of questions. The first lot goes to Mr. Lloyd.

You have six minutes, sir, whenever you're ready.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Moonshot.

Do you receive funding from the Government of Canada?

[Vidhya Ramalingam]

Yes, sir. We receive funding from the Government of Canada.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Do you exclusively focus on the far right, or do you focus on extremism across the political spectrum?

[Vidhya Ramalingam]

We focus on extremism across the political spectrum. Our work in Canada has always focused on the violent far right as well as Daesh and al Qaeda inspired terrorism.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I wouldn't accuse Daesh of being far right or far left.

Do you focus on anything related to anarchists or environmental terrorism? Last year there were dozens of churches burned down in Canada. Have you done any research on those specific instances?

[Vidhya Ramalingam]

Absolutely, sir. We look at domestic violent extremism across the ideological spectrum. As an organization, we follow the evidence. This doesn't mean we're seeing the threat from other kinds of ideological groups diminish. We just look at where the evidence base takes us, and we'll proportionately invest in prevention based on that.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Can you give any examples of your group's investigation into environmental extremism or anarchist extremism, or into anti-religious groups specifically targeting Christian or Jewish groups?

[Vidhya Ramalingam]

We absolutely do. In every country where we deliver both research and interventions, we cover far-left extremism, as well, where there's violence or where violence is incited.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Can you give some examples of that in Canada?

[Vidhya Ramalingam]

In Canada, our funded projects specifically look at the violent far right and al Qaeda and Daesh inspired terrorism. More recently, we've looked at incel-inspired violence. We have not yet done work funded by the Canadian government that looks at far-left extremism, but I would welcome the opportunity to do so.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

You're saying the Canadian government is only funding you to look into Islamic or Daesh related extremism and far-right extremism. Is there no funding from the Government of Canada to deal with environmental extremism or bigotry against Christian or Jewish groups in Canada?

[Vidhya Ramalingam]

I can't speak to the full range of funding the Canadian government is currently providing across those issues—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Speak about your group, specifically.

[Vidhya Ramalingam]

In our group, specifically, work has focused on al Qaeda, Daesh, far-right extremism and incel violence. As I mentioned, we would welcome the opportunity to do work across the ideological spectrum.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Are you aware of any of your peer groups receiving funding from the Canadian government to look at far-left extremism in Canada?

[Vidhya Ramalingam]

I'm not personally aware of the full extent of programs that have been funded by Public Safety, but I believe all those projects are publicly listed online. I would welcome questions around that to look at the public releases around funding by the Canadian government.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I appreciate that.

As somebody who works in this field, you're surely familiar with other organizations that also receive government funding and do similar work. To your knowledge, there are no funded studies from the Government of Canada to deal with environmental extremism or far-left extremism.

[Vidhya Ramalingam]

I wouldn't have the background to answer that question, sir.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Answer as far as you know.

[Vidhya Ramalingam]

I can only speak for—