Public Safety Committee on May 19th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 26 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

I will start by acknowledging that I am meeting on Treaty 1 territory and the home of the Métis nation.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. Members and witnesses participating virtually may speak in the official language of their choice. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), 108(2) and the motion adopted on Tuesday, March 22, the committee will commence consideration of the main estimates for 2022-23 and the subject matter of the supplementary estimates (C) 2021-22.

I now call vote 1 under the Canada Border Services Agency.

With us today we have the Honourable Marco Mendicino, Minister of Public Safety, and officials from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, the Canada Border Services Agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Correctional Service of Canada, the Parole Board of Canada and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Welcome to all.

Welcome, Minister. You have the floor for opening remarks whenever you're ready to begin, sir.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee, we thank you for inviting us to join you today.

I'm pleased to present the 2022-23 main estimates for the public safety portfolio.

I would first like to point out that I am accompanied today by some officials:

We have Rob Stewart, my deputy minister; Anne Kelly, commissioner of the Correctional Service of Canada; President John Ossowski of the Canada Border Services Agency; and of course, Brenda Lucki, commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, among a bevy of other officials whom I want to express gratitude to for being here with us today.

I want to begin by stating that I appreciate the committee's studies on matters related to keeping Canadians safe. I've had the opportunity to speak to you on several occasions now on gun control and on gang prevention, both of which I will expand on in a moment. I've also addressed this committee regarding various security issues around the illegal blockades we witnessed in January and February of this year.

I also look forward to speaking with you in a few weeks when you continue your study on Canada's security posture in relation to Russia.

Before I talk about the numbers, I want to once again thank the many dedicated professionals at the Department of Public Safety, who work day and night to keep Canadians safe.

That's especially remarkable during the time of uncertainty with which we are confronted: a global pandemic, an unfolding war in Ukraine, protests around the country and many more challenges affecting Canadians.

Protecting the public is the government's first duty and among the highest of our obligations as parliamentarians. We will continue to stand up for all Canadians. Just this week, the tragedy in Buffalo reminded us of the despicable and deadly threat posed by hate and racism. Canada is not immune. We cannot turn away from the threat of racism and of the ideological extremism that informs it more broadly. It is our duty to share the collaborative efforts in staring this deadly threat in the face and to make good on our commitment to protect the Canadian people.

This commitment is why Canada's public safety portfolio is the largest non-military portfolio in government, and it's what these estimates reflect in my portfolio, ensuring that we live up to that obligation by backing up that work with solid and reliable funding.

On that portfolio-wide basis, the total authorities sought in the main estimates will result in funding approvals of $11.3 billion for the public safety portfolio for this fiscal year. That would result in a net increase of $1.2 billion, or 12%, over last year's estimates. You will see that year over year for the portfolio, funding levels remain stable.

I'll point to four main highlights. For Public Safety Canada, the total funding sought is $883.5 million, representing a net decrease of $172 million over the previous year. For the Canada Border Services Agency, the total funding sought is $2.3 billion, representing a net increase of $294.6 million, which includes compensation adjustments. For the Correctional Service of Canada, total funding sought is $3.1 billion, representing a $257-million increase, and for the RCMP, the total funding sought is $4.2 billion, representing an increase of $794.5 million. That includes a net increase for negotiated salary adjustments stemming from the new national police federal collective agreement and an increase in grants and contributions to compensate members of the RCMP for injuries received in the line of duty.

I will briefly discuss the main elements that this amount encompasses so as to provide a breakdown.

There is a $345.8-million decrease in funding regarding the disaster financial assistance arrangements program, or DFAA. That's based on forecasts from provinces and territories for expected disbursements under the DFAA for this fiscal year. Due to the unpredictable nature of natural disasters, the DFAA funding levels may be significantly adjusted through the course of this fiscal year. For example, departmental reference levels will be increased in 2022-23 in order to provide advance payments to the Province of British Columbia for several flooding events, including the devastating flooding disaster that occurred in November 2021.

Over the past 10 years, the annual DFAA payments have ranged from $99 million in 2012 to over $2 billion planned for this fiscal year. The program has contributed more in the past 10 years than it did in the previous 42 years. It is worth noting that unforeseen circumstances, for example a new disaster or a last-minute amendment to the timing and amount of a province's payment request, can drastically impact the DFAA's annual appropriations.

As I've noted, also in these main estimates are a $305.4-million increase for negotiated salary adjustments stemming from the new police federal collective agreement and a $230.3-million increase to help compensate members of the RCMP for injuries received in the performance of duty.

Mr. Chair, these items represent the most significant changes in appropriations. As Minister of Public Safety, my top priority remains keeping Canadians safe, and I look forward to your questions and comments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Now I will open the floor for questions. To lead us off with a six-minute block, I would welcome Mr. Lloyd to take the floor when he is ready.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for coming, Minister.

Minister, on May 2 you stated in the House of Commons that on the recommendation of law enforcement, you invoked the Emergencies Act.

Given new evidence from the RCMP commissioner and the Ottawa chief of police that they did not ask you to invoke the Emergencies Act, do you still stand by your statement, yes or no?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I do, Mr. Lloyd, because as you heard from Commissioner Lucki, there was consultation, including seeking advice on the powers that were included in the Emergencies Act. It was necessary. It kept Canadians safe. We stand by that decision.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

Dozens of churches in Canada were vandalized and burnt to the ground last year alone. Do you consider these to be acts of terrorism?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Lloyd, I think you would know, from me and from our government, that we stand against all forms of violence. Where appropriate and whenever necessary, we will continue to condemn that form of violence.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Minister, under Canadian law the definition of terrorism indicates that a terrorist act is one that is used to intimidate for political, ideological or religious purposes, and that can include significant damage to property.

Do you consider the complete destruction of churches across Canada last year to meet the definition in Canadian law of a terrorist act, yes or no?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Lloyd, you will know from previous testimony that I have extensive experience prosecuting terrorism. I am familiar with the definition, and of course, where violence is informed by a political, ideological or religious motivation, it can be prosecuted, but of course, those decisions are up to police to make independently.

Regardless, I condemn that kind of violence, and I think all reasonable and fair-minded Canadians would.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Okay, Minister.

Can you tell the committee if you are familiar with the following quote? It is “bring forward measures to counter the rise of ideologically-inspired violent extremism and strengthen the capacity of Canadian police and prosecutors to bring to justice cybercriminals and terror suspects to the fullest extent of the law.”

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Of course I am, yes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

What is it from?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It's from the mandate.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

It's from your mandate letter. I'm glad you know your mandate letter. That's very reassuring.

What are you doing to ensure that the suspects—the hate crime suspects—who destroyed these churches, are brought to justice to the fullest extent of the law?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

First, I think we need to go back to an important principle in our democracy, which is that we, as parliamentarians, write laws and we create policies to address ideological extremism, but we place our confidence in law enforcement to apply those laws, to investigate and to prosecute independently, Mr. Lloyd. I would think that you would agree that we ought not to be going into that function because—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Certainly, Minister, but your mandate letter says that you need to strengthen the capacity of police to bring these criminals to justice to “the fullest extent of the law.”

What are you doing to give prosecutors and the police the tools to bring the church-burning suspects to justice?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

First, we have strong laws on the books, as we have pointed out, to ensure that criminals are brought to justice, especially those who commit crimes on the basis of religious, political and ideological motivations. Second, we're also continuing to invest in law enforcement, providing them with additional resources—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Is there an investigation into these church burnings? Is there an investigation continuing?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'm sorry, but I didn't hear your question.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Are you aware of whether there is an investigation continuing into these church burnings?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Lloyd, again, as I've said on a couple of occasions, investigations are carried out independently by law enforcement.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Are you not aware of whether or not there's an investigation?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I believe that questions around investigations are best directed to law enforcement.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Okay. Thank you, Minister.

Minister, an attack against one faith community in this country is an attack against all faith communities. Some national security experts who have come before this committee have stated that certain extremists, particularly those who attack pipelines and burn down churches, are acting with impunity because they don't believe that your government will go after them.

What do you have to say to that? From national security experts....

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Lloyd, I hope that you, as a responsible parliamentarian, would discourage them from believing that. I would hope that you would say that we are united as parliamentarians in stamping out any kind of ideological—