Public Safety Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 38 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. We will start by acknowledging that we are meeting on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin people.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, June 23, 2022, the committee commenced consideration of Bill C-21, an act to amend certain acts and to make certain consequential amendments (firearms).

We have today two panels of witnesses.

For the first hour, I'd like to welcome, from Airsoft in Canada, Brian A. McIlmoyle, director; Nicholas James Martin, member, who is with us by video conference, I believe; and Ziming Wan, member.

Welcome.

For the second hour, we also have, from Canadian Doctors for Protection from Guns, Dr. Najma Ahmed, Dr. Philip Berger and Dr. Julie Maggi. From the Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association, we have Wesley Allan Winkel, president.

Thanks to all of you for joining us here.

We'll start with statements from our groups of witnesses.

We'll start with Airsoft in Canada. Please go ahead for five minutes.

[Brian A. McIlmoyle, Director, Airsoft in Canada]

Thank you, Chair.

My name is Brian McIlmoyle. I'm a director at ASIC, the Saving Airsoft in Canada Association. I'm joined by Ziming Wan and Nicholas Martin by video conference.

Thank you for inviting us here today.

Airsoft is a sport practised by tens of thousands of Canadians all across the country. Airsofters come from diverse backgrounds, all genders and orientations, English and French, casual or enthusiast, sport competitor or collector. Airsoft is enjoyed by those exploring military re-enactments and simulations and by costume role players attending anime conventions. Airsoft businesses employ over 1,400 people. Today is a very important day for these people.

In Canada, recreational airsoft is a $220-million industry, with more than $46 million spent annually on goods and equipment and more than $36 million on event production and tourism in the small towns that typically host these events. Bill C-21, as currently written, would shutter this industry entirely.

The Canadian film, video game and media industry is worth $9 billion-plus annually, with about $5 billion of that from films involving firearms and airsoft gear. Rubber prop guns were prohibited by Bill C-68 in 1993. Film armourers have told us that they are entirely reliant upon the Canadian airsoft retailers because of the next-day turnarounds required by film studios. They require direct access to retail sources for airsoft equipment. Without it, film productions would be delayed for weeks.

Since the accidental shooting of Halyna Hutchins, we have been told that Hollywood productions have shrunk their demand for real firearms by 60%, and increased their use of airsoft by 40%, with some film unions calling to shift entirely to airsoft. About 66% of Canadian film industry prop guns are airsoft. Film armourers that we have consulted have stated that Bill C-21, as currently written, would make Canada far less attractive for these productions, threatening that $5 billion of production.

We understand the concerns of law enforcement. In our consultations with them, they noted their top concern was mistaking airsoft for real firearms, in particular when youth and children were involved. Police are trained to treat any suspected gun as a deadly threat. This has historically included Nerf blasters, Lego, camera tripods and musical instruments. We should be taking every practical precaution to prevent any potentially tragic incident for both police officers and the persons who are accidentally or negligently abusing airsoft.

We believe the best means to mitigate these risks is an 18-plus restriction on the purchase of airsoft, which would prevent children from buying airsoft without parental knowledge. In addition, a legal acknowledgement of risk or a waiver, when signed and combined with some clear educational material, will impress upon parents and young adults the important and very mortal responsibility of owning airsoft gear.

We believe this will prevent the majority of police calls for service, resulting from accidental and negligent use of airsoft. This would also bring us in line with the majority our peers internationally.

If we are to go a step beyond that, ASIC has studied a self-regulatory system similar to the United Kingdom's Airsoft Retailers Association and the U.K.'s Violent Crime Reduction act, which stipulates membership in an airsoft association in order to possess airsoft. This kind of measure would require a higher administrative overhead, but there is a feasible appetite for it within our community.

These measures benefit from joint positions with the FSAQ, or Fédération Sportive d'Airsoft du Québec; the AABC, Airsoft Association of British Columbia; and the CSAAA, the Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association.

Bill C-21's proposed redefinition of a prohibited device would eliminate airsoft as a sport by changing the legal classification of virtually all airsoft in Canada. It also affects a larger category of products, including paintball markers, pellet guns, Nerf foam blasters, etc., all of which would be impacted by Bill C-21 to varying degrees.

How Bill C-21 is written would make airsoft illegal to buy, sell, import, export or transfer. It would make it subject to confiscation without legal recourse. Current owners would be in possession of a prohibited device and subject to the relevant laws.

There is no doubt the legal regulation around airsoft is confusing. Manufacturers, importers, the CBSA and law enforcement find it confusing as well. The legal context of airsoft involves multiple sections of the Criminal Code, the Firearms Act and examples of case law that involve different definitions, qualifications and quantifications.

We suggest that this committee empower the Governor in Council to work with consultative bodies such as ASIC to more comprehensively and exhaustively define “replica firearm” and/or “airsoft” through regulation. We hope today that the committee can work with our community to develop a solution.

I thank you for your time today, Mr. Chair, and I welcome any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you. You were only 15 seconds over, which is good.

We go now via video conference to the Canadian Doctors for Protection from Guns.

Please go ahead for five minutes.

[Dr. Najma Ahmed, Doctor, Canadian Doctors for Protection from Guns]

Thank you.

Gun injury and death is an urgent public health issue. The Canadian Medical Association declares that “Firearm-related injuries and fatalities are a major cause of premature and preventable death in Canada.” A 2020 Ontario study shows that over a 15-year period, there were nearly 6,500 gun injuries, and 42% were fatal. Another 2020 Canadian study shows that 10% to 20% of patients with firearm injuries suffer lifelong disability.

Gun injuries stress our economy and public health systems. Many of my patients never go back to work or school because of the physical and emotional trauma they have suffered. The toll on families and communities is unimaginable. Canadians have called on governments to reduce this threat to public health and well-being.

Preventing injury and death from firearms is a multi-faceted challenge that demands evidence-based solutions. Canada needs Bill C-21, with a permanent ban on assault weapons to save lives. Indisputable peer-reviewed evidence from around the world shows that restricting access to guns saves lives. The stronger the measures, the safer it is, and this is irrefutable.

Canada has work to do. We rank ninth of 36 countries in the OECD for firearm mortality.

The gun is the vector of harm and death. This is why assault weapons—firearms that can kill and maim many people in mere minutes—have no place in our communities. Banning these firearms will not necessarily make our society less violent, but it will make the violence less lethal. It has worked in Australia. It worked in Switzerland. It even worked for a time in the U.S.

A similar type of gun, the SKS rifle, which is not currently covered by the order in council, was used recently to kill two police officers in Ontario. A clear line must be drawn to ban all semi-automatic rifles as part of this legislation.

Further, CDPG supports the ban on the sale and transfer of handguns. International research shows that a woman is five times more likely to be killed in a domestic violence situation when there is a gun in the home, most frequently by a handgun. In 2019, the Canadian Femicide Observatory identified firearms as the most commonly reported means used to kill women and girls. All guns, including handguns, can be used to intimidate and control.

Handguns smuggled from the U.S. are not the sole source of crime guns. A handgun stolen from a gun shop in Saskatchewan was used in the Danforth mass shooting.

We support the proposed “red flag” law. Family members, physicians and concerned individuals must have access to an efficient process to quickly have firearms removed from someone who may be at risk to themselves or others.

In Canada, suicide accounts for about 75% of gun deaths. A gun in the home increases adolescent suicide rates by threefold to fourfold. Evidence from other jurisdictions shows that “red flag” laws are effective in reducing firearm suicides.

Most people who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide. This is why restricting access to lethal means saves lives. Suicide attempts with a gun are almost uniformly fatal.

Public education and easy access to a confidential process for the removal of firearms would strengthen this bill. New York State offers its citizens an online application reviewed by a judge within 24 hours. We urge the federal government to work with provinces and territories to mandate physician reporting of individuals at risk of harming themselves or others.

The ban on replica guns is good but insufficient. Non-powdered firearms have the speed and force to penetrate skin or eyes and are a source of injury to children and youth. We urge the government to create a strong regulatory framework for these guns. We recommend mandatory warning and education labels on all guns and ammunition at the point of sale, similar to tobacco and other products.

The government must invest in the social determinants of health. I have seen how the traps set by poverty, racism and the lack of opportunity combined with a firearm devastate young lives. I know the government has been listening to community voices. Now it must act.

Finally, Canada would benefit from a deeper understanding of firearm injury. This bill should include a national firearms research and policy centre to study existing and potential solutions to reduce harm from guns.

For 20 years I have been treating patients devastated by firearm injuries and consoling families left behind with immeasurable grief. Our sole interest today is to protect Canadians from gun injury and death.

Thank you for listening to me so patiently. I'm here with my colleagues, Dr. Maggi and Dr. Berger, and we would be pleased to answer any questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you very much.

We go now to Mr. Winkel with the Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association.

Go ahead, please, for five minutes, sir.

[Wesley Allan Winkel, President, Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association]

Thank you very much.

My name is Wes Winkel, and I'm the president of the Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association. We have a volunteer board of directors, and I represent over 4,100 licensed businesses in Canada, as well as over 40,000 employees. We have a 2018 study that shows that we have an $8.5-billion economic impact to our country's economy, and $2.6 billion of that is involved in sport shooting.

Bill C-21, as currently constructed, gives us the danger of losing another 20%. We lost 20% in the May 1 order in council, and with the handgun freeze and the airgun prohibitions, we could be looking at a total of over 30%. This could lead to over 15,000 jobs lost in Canada. Businesses in Canada have invested millions of dollars to adhere to the strict regulations and the strict regulatory environment already imposed and have done a great job in keeping guns out of the hands of the criminal element. Over 90% of handguns used in crimes are acquired through criminal means and are not sourced legally.

The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police has denounced the handgun transfer freeze and says that it will not have an impact on crime guns in Canada. We believe that to decimate our whole industry is a mistake. It is virtually impossible for our industry to keep up with the speed and volume of regulation changes that have been coming our way, and we've spent countless hours training staff and trying to remain up to date in our regulatory environment.

We request some compromise and some relief inside Bill C-21 and in the current regulations. We've been asking for a change of the “replica firearm” definition, as previously discussed by the air gun industry. We're looking for the committee to consult the air gun industry and to find a way to identify firearms for law enforcement to ensure that they are differentiated from real live firearms and we again recommend the implementation of the 18-year-old guideline for purchase.

We request that they remove the transfer freeze on handguns for individuals. Canada has probably the largest vetted and legal handgun ownership in the world. These sport shooters conduct their sport at ranges safely and provide no risk to the Canadian public. We have many participants who operate in this safe environment, and the businesses ensure that these firearms only reach the hands of those licensed individuals. We're requesting that the government not cease the sale of firearms to these licensed, vetted individuals but rather find an alternative method to restrict ownership and to keep those vetted individuals able to purchase and stay in our sport. There's a possibility of capping licences but ensuring that we can continue to sell and trade current firearms among ourselves.

We also ask that this committee look at respecting all competition shooters with the same exceptions as Olympic target shooters. We have sport shooters at international competitions such as the Single Action Shooting Society, or SASS; the International Practical Shooting Competitions, or IPSC; and the IDPA. These are internationally recognized shooting competitions with trained shooters who have dedicated their lives to their sport. They conduct it in a safe manner and they've always adhered to the government regulations. There is no need to attack this community because certain guns are used in the criminal element.

Furthermore, our businesses are asking that the government remove the downgrade of classification of firearms inside Bill C-21. By definition, the government has declared certain firearms a higher risk to society by labelling them as “restricted” and “prohibited”, and it makes no sense why the government would want us to stop downgrading these firearms. If they've deemed that the public safety is enhanced by changing the firearms from prohibited to restricted, why would we want to limit that? Businesses have spent thousands of dollars training gunsmiths and investing in equipment to produce equipment and ensure that these firearms get downgraded successfully and safely. There is no need, at this point, to restrict that.

Furthermore, there are three more items discussed at the bottom of the regulatory amendments with the intention of implementation by order in council. We request more clarity on these things before they're brought in, and a high level of consultation with the industry, first and foremost on the magazine restriction intentions. To limit all firearms to five rounds or less would create a nearly impossible situation for the industry in conducting its business.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Excuse me. Could you wrap up quickly?

[Wesley Allan Winkel]

Yes.

We would also ask that they look at those regulations closely and consult with industry. The same goes for the firearms-marking regulations and the enhanced security measures for storage.

Thank you very much. We're free to answer questions at any time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Great. Thank you.

Thank you all. We'll now go to our round of questions.

Mr. Lloyd, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for coming here and sharing their unique perspectives.

I'm going to start with a question for Canadian Doctors for Protection from Guns.

I found it interesting to hear—and my own research backed up your claim—that 75% to 80% of firearms-related deaths in Canada are caused by suicide. I note that the department in the last meeting justified Bill C-21 because of its ability to reduce suicide by firearms. I'm concerned, though, if you're aware of it, that a 2004 peer-reviewed study from Jean Caron showed that while gun control measures did reduce the prevalence of firearm-related suicides, it didn't reduce the overall suicide rate, as people found alternative means of committing suicide.

I think we should be promoting policies that reduce suicide overall. We know we're in a mental health challenge. It seems like this policy might have an impact on reducing firearms-related suicide, but do you have any evidence to suggest that it would reduce suicide absolutely?

[Dr. Najma Ahmed]

Thank you for the question.

There is actually strong evidence. I'll defer to my colleague Dr. Maggi on that. She is the mental health expert and knows the literature quite well.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Because of my limited time, can you please submit that evidence to committee for our review when we have more time? Thank you—

[Dr. Najma Ahmed]

We would be delighted to submit, but we would also request that we be allowed to answer the question—two sentences, please.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Okay.

[Dr. Najma Ahmed]

Thank you.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Go ahead.

[Dr. Julie Maggi, Doctor, Canadian Doctors for Protection from Guns]

We will submit, I think in summary, that the mental health community is unanimously in favour of means restriction, which has been put in place in many different areas, to prevent suicide, including on things like bridges. Very few people, a minority of them, actually substitute. When they do, they typically substitute to suicide attempts with less lethal means.

I'll leave it at that, and we will—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you. We'll expect some more stuff.

I was also interested in a Statistics Canada report from 2020 that said “four out of five (83%) victims of violent crime where a firearm was present were either not injured (61%) or they sustained a minor injury that required no professional medical treatment or only some first aid”. The Statistics Canada report also said that “Victims of firearm-related violent crime were less likely to be injured than victims where no firearm was present....”

How does that match up with the evidence that you have presented here today? This was Statistics Canada.

[Dr. Najma Ahmed]

I'm not aware of that specific data, but I can tell you that a recent CMAJ study published by first author David Gomez cited a 42% mortality rate for patients who arrive to hospital.

I don't know that specific data. That's not peer-reviewed data. I'm not familiar with that data. I'd have to study that and get back to you on that.

That is not what the body of evidence shows, and that is not what we're seeing in our trauma rooms, our emergency departments and hospitals on a daily basis.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

I'll move on to my next question. This is to the CSAAA.

I would note that in the last meeting, I was asking about the five-round magazine limit. I'm aware that there are a number of primarily non-restricted rifles in Canada that can use a substituted handgun magazine that can hold 10 rounds. Do you have any evidence or inherent facts that these firearms that have 10 rounds have been used in crimes? Is this something that's a concern?

[Wesley Allan Winkel]

Absolutely not. There's been no direct correlation of data with those particular firearms that have the ability to have a higher capacity due to the pistol magazine exemption of the five-round limit in semi-automatic firearms. There's been no evidence that those firearms have been used in crimes or that there's been an increase in public safety concerns.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

To clarify, nobody is suggesting that we should be legalizing high-capacity magazines in Canada.

In the case of these firearms in particular, which could be impacted by this legislation, you haven't seen any crimes. There hasn't been a public safety argument as far as you've seen that these are being used in crimes because of their capacity.

[Wesley Allan Winkel]

That's correct. We've seen no data to suggest that there's an increase in public safety concerns.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

One concern I had was a provision in the bill about forcing people to show their licence to prevent trafficking. An example was straw purchasing.

I've always kind of thought straw purchasing for handguns or restricted weapons was a bit of a red herring, considering that they are registered. Anyone who would straw purchase a restricted firearm and then sell it on the black market would be really opening themselves up, because it would be quite easy to identify who is committing this.

Can you talk about straw purchasing? Is it a serious issue?

[Wesley Allan Winkel]

Straw purchasing represents a very small number of guns that end up in the hands of criminals. It is still something that is on the radar. The industry has worked a lot with NWEST to identify straw purchasers. We've had a three-year program now that has been extremely successful in lowering these amounts of straw purchasing.