Evidence of meeting #39 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was handguns.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:05 p.m.
Chief of Police, Edmonton Police Service
I agree; the definition is one thing, but the application is another.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
Super.
Look, I've been trying to get data on things around Bill C-21 and firearms legislation over the last three years, with not very much luck. You've both given some statistics or some data. Inspector, you named a number of firearms crimes just recently. How many were done with a legal handgun?
1:05 p.m.
Insp Michael Rowe
Unfortunately, I don't have that data in front of me.
1:05 p.m.
Insp Michael Rowe
Quite honestly, I didn't ask for it in preparation for this meeting.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you, Mr. Ruff.
We go now to Mr. Schiefke for a minute and a half, please.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Schiefke Liberal Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Inspector Rowe and Chief McFee, for addressing in your opening remarks the challenges associated with ghost guns. Recently in Montreal, just about half an hour outside my riding of Vaudreuil-Soulanges, we had a shooting. The individual was arrested. The police believe the gun he used was one that he put together using parts purchased online as well parts that were printed in 3-D.
My question is for both of you. Are there any best practices you can share with us that perhaps you've learned through your discussions with your counterparts nationally or internationally with regard to how we can tackle this? Is there something that's been proven to help tackle this issue?
I'll turn it over to you first, Inspector Rowe.
1:10 p.m.
Insp Michael Rowe
We've been working quite heavily.... We are lucky in Vancouver; we have our own forensics firearms lab. It has been manufacturing ghost guns to learn more about the manufacturing process and to help investigators identify such things as the tools needed, some of the jigs or even the waste by-products, so that when we're out investigating, we're able to identify the exact items related to the manufacture of these ghost guns. We can then utilize that to develop our grounds and continue our investigation and obtain judicial authorizations and that kind of thing.
Once again, specialized firearms enforcement teams are required to address this problem. That's where the knowledge and the subject matter expertise can be developed. We can develop excellent witnesses and move forward to get successful prosecutions against people who are manufacturing firearms.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Schiefke Liberal Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Chief McFee, in just a couple of seconds, would you agree with that assessment?
October 20th, 2022 / 1:10 p.m.
Chief of Police, Edmonton Police Service
I would agree with the specialized enforcement.
The other thing is that we do have our lab, plus we have a really good relationship with the ATF. That's where ghost guns started, as most things do.
As Inspector Rowe says, we don't see a lot of them, but we're seeing more and more, so anything that we can put in to restrict them in relation to that.... Right now they're not traceable; therefore, you have to look at that a different way.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
1:10 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would have liked to ask everyone a question, but I have another question for you, Mr. Friedman.
You seem to be quite openly opposed to stricter firearms controls. Members of the armed forces and police officers who use firearms in their work, whether military-style assault weapons or handguns, have to leave their weapons at the station or comply with very strict storage and transport rules. So why should civilians be allowed to keep assault rifles and handguns at home?
Should things that are as dangerous as weapons not be kept in secure locations at all times?
1:10 p.m.
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
I think that's a very good question.
First of all, I'm certainly not against tighter gun control laws; I am against laws that do nothing but criminalize otherwise law-abiding citizens. Firearms are dangerous and they need to be controlled and regulated. We're very proud to live in Canada, which is a country where we have some of the strictest regulations and produce very positive public safety outcomes.
I am against laws that have no empirical tie to public safety outcomes. We live in a society with lots of dangerous regulated objects. Firearms are far from the leading weapon used in homicides. They're not even close.
If we're talking about regulating something—if we have decided that there ought to be a regulatory regime whereby people can own and use them safely—the onus is on the legislators to demonstrate that further restrictions will lead to positive public safety outcomes. In my experience and my review of the data, having studied this and written on it for the past 15 years, that's simply not the case. The legislators have failed at each turn to meet that burden.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
1:10 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Friedman, I'd like to get your lawyer's perspective on the wording of clause 1.
We've heard the feedback from the police on their perspective on airsoft. Do you have suggestions? Right now these devices are going to basically be deemed prohibited in certain parts of the Criminal Code.
Do you have suggestions on a way forward that can basically take into account police concerns but also let the airsoft community continue with their sport?
1:10 p.m.
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
I wish I could give this answer in a minute and a half.
I'll tell you that I have the sincere dishonour of having lost this case at the Supreme Court of Canada. It was Her Majesty, as she was then, and Christopher Dunn, and it defined firearms in the context of airsoft and pellet guns. It's an area that I'm far too familiar with. I'd be happy to give you my background materials on it.
To me, the issue is pinning down a definition of, first, “readily adaptable”. A firearm—not the replica firearm—definition itself has a clause that defines firearms and then anything that's readily adaptable to be a firearm, which is a grey area.
I hear what Inspector Rowe is saying, which is that these devices can be converted. If they can be readily adaptable, they are already illegal and they're already firearms.
What “readily adaptable” means is a real grey area. The Americans and the ATF use 80% finished. They talk about certain tools and procedures that are used to complete firearms. That's one place to focus.
The second place is—
1:10 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Can you submit the brief to the committee on that?
1:15 p.m.
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
Absolutely. It's a factum that was written on that subject that deals with the dangerousness of airsoft and pellet guns.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you all.
To all of our witnesses, thank you for your time today, for sharing with us your expertise and your experience, and for helping us in our study.
We are a little over time. I apologize to the committee staff and the interpreters for that.
With that, we are now adjourned.