Public Safety Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

But if there's an emergency situation, should people go to the courts or should they go to the police?

[Chief Dale McFee]

If you're talking about that, absolutely, it's the police.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Do you think, because of the delays we've heard about that we've seen in the court system, that someone seeking an emergency weapons prohibition order from the court instead of calling the police immediately in an emergency is actually putting themselves and possibly others in more danger?

[Chief Dale McFee]

Again, that would be a hypothetical answer, but the possibility does exist.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Do you think that the red flag laws in this legislation are necessary, or are police already enforcing red flag laws in this country?

[Chief Dale McFee]

As mentioned, there is Criminal Code section 117.02, and this bill would strengthen that, but I haven't seen exactly how many times across this country section 117.02 has been used to date.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Is there any truth to the claim that some people have made that this legislation to add the courts is necessary because police are ignoring the requests of victims?

[Chief Dale McFee]

I have never seen a police service.... You heard it as well from the inspector in B.C.: Firearms are something that we all take very seriously, regardless of whether it is a handgun or any type of firearm, replica or not. It's a very serious offence that all police services that I am aware of take action on.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

You don't have any evidence that the police are not currently doing their job in enforcing red flag laws.

[Chief Dale McFee]

Correct.

We could do more of it. Again, it comes down, obviously, as the inspector also mentioned, to resources.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Friedman, a key justification for Bill C-21 is to prevent the practice of so-called straw purchasing. Is straw purchasing a widespread practice in this country?

[Solomon Friedman]

Particularly when it comes to handguns that are registered to the licensed owner, it's legal suicide for somebody to buy handguns to divert them to the illegal market. They are tied to them both by serial number and registration certificate, and that's why in the homicide and shooting cases I've done and that my colleagues do, police investigate, particularly in the city of Ottawa but also elsewhere. We see guns illegally smuggled into the country as being the handguns that are used in violent crimes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Do you believe that the current practices that regulate handguns in this country are effective at preventing and deterring straw purchases?

[Solomon Friedman]

The proof is in the pudding. As I said, it would take a very foolish individual—not just foolish, but once again, someone who wants to spend years and years in the penitentiary—to sign themselves up to a list, put their name of a government database and then go and commit a crime that is linked to that database.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Will the prohibition of handgun transfers under Bill C-21 do anything to prevent the purchase, possession and use of handguns for illegal purposes?

[Solomon Friedman]

I echo Chief McFee. I think a really important perspective is being lost here. The only thing it will do is alienate 2.2 million law-abiding Canadians who were told to license and register their firearms, and then they would be able to own them safely and lawfully. Instead, we're going to see less compliance with licensing and a general mistrust, driving a wedge between law-abiding citizens and law enforcement when they should be close partners in co-operation.

Not only will it do nothing, because law-abiding citizens and legally owned handguns aren't the problem here, but it could actually jeopardize public safety, and I'm very happy the police are here to give that perspective.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

Bill C-21 also makes it an offence to alter a magazine to exceed the legal limit of bullets. We all know that it is currently illegal to own a magazine with a capacity that exceeds the number of legal bullets. Can you, as a lawyer, explain the ridiculousness of this proposal?

[Solomon Friedman]

I listened closely to what Inspector Rowe had to say. It's an interesting perspective. I guess there are competing points of view here.

As a criminal defence lawyer, I'm of the view that if something's illegal once, it doesn't have to be illegal two, three or four times. It's a crime to possess a prohibited device. A magazine that holds more than the legally permitted number of rounds is a prohibited device. If people aren't deterred from committing one crime, they're not going to be deterred from committing two, three, four or five crimes.

To me, watching the Criminal Code get thicker by the year and not actually addressing the reasons that someone might commit this offence or not giving the police the resources to investigate these serious offences are real concerns.

I'd say this: If those offences do not already form the provisions whereby, as Inspector Rowe said, police can seek authorizations, whether they're search warrants or wiretaps, that's a good place to start. Creating brand new offences that target existing illegal conduct seems to me like a waste of time and energy.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Do you agree with Chief McFee's assessment on the red flag provisions in Bill C-21, yes or no?

[Solomon Friedman]

Yes.

I think it's an important point that police already take a very active stance when they get public safety complaints about firearms. The concern is that the courts will be flooded with people with complaints that have been investigated by the police and found to be meritless.

We don't need more backlog in our courts when the police are already taking extensive enforcement action on firearms public safety concerns.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We go now to Mr. Noormohamed. Please go ahead for six minutes.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for being here, particularly Chief McFee and Inspector Rowe. It's good to see you again.

We've heard a lot of rhetoric and very political statements. I'd like to just get to the facts in trying to get this legislation to be even better than it is. I'd like to start with Inspector Rowe.

You came before this committee once before. We spoke about ghost guns, and you've touched on ghost guns again today. One thing that I'd like us to spend a little bit of time on and get your perspective on is what this legislation should do in respect of ghost guns, particularly in relation to component parts, which you rightly mentioned can be brought in, traded or bought without permit right now.

How do you think we should build this into the legislation specifically? What would you like us to be able to go from this meeting and do?

[Insp Michael Rowe]

Thank you very much for the question, sir.

I think the key message that we're getting from me and my fellow panellists here is that the key issue we're trying to target is illegal firearms. While illegally smuggled firearms, particularly from the United States, are a significant issue, a very growing issue we're seeing out here is the manufacture of firearms. It's the creation of privately made firearms and ghost guns, particularly among those people who are using them to commit violence. We're seeing them in the hands of the hit men who are out there working to cause violence and take lives.

The receiver, which is currently the regulated part, was considered to be the key component of a firearm. Unfortunately, 3-D printing has made that very outdated now. That is an easily manufactured component and it is easily replaced on non-restricted guns. The key components now are the final pieces that you need to make that receiver an actual functioning firearm, such as barrels, slides, trigger assemblies and those types of components. While those can also be manufactured, I believe that requiring a PAL and integrating the purchase, possession, sale and importation of these particular components into the current licensing system would go a long way toward preventing the proliferation of privately made firearms within our communities.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Inspector Rowe.

There will be people who say that this is just adding red tape to the process and that we should be diverting our attention elsewhere. What would you say to those people, having seen what you have seen in Vancouver, having seen what you have seen in the manufacture of these weapons and the need for these parts to be regulated? What would you say to folks who say that this is not important?

[Insp Michael Rowe]

I would suggest to them that this is extremely important. This is only going to grow. Our firearms laws need to grow, develop and modernize, just like firearms and the firearms manufacturing are modernizing.

Right now, we are regulating a part that can be produced within minutes on a 3-D printer. It can be produced in such quality that it's virtually indistinguishable from the actual manufactured part.

I really do respect the need for a lawful gun owner to want to replace their barrel, upgrade their trigger or replace those components on their lawfully possessed firearm. That's fair enough. They can use the same licence that they utilized to purchase that firearm to purchase those components. What that would do is help us restrict the number of these components that are coming into our country, particularly via mail order and online purchase from the United States, which are going into manufacturing these privately made firearms that are being used to commit violence.