Public Safety Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2022

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to assure both witnesses that I'm hearing very clearly the emphasis on prevention and increasing the capacity of first nations policing.

In your opening, Chief Teegee, you expressed concerns about the red flag laws, particularly the possibility of infringing upon treaty and indigenous rights. You suggested that they need to be amended.

I'm going to ask you a very specific question, because I'm trying to get a clear picture here. If those sections on the red flag laws are not amended, would you prefer to see them removed from this bill?

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

Whether this is succeeding in its intention is something for your committee. I think having those amended to make sure that our first nations are involved....

When it comes to the red and yellow flags, it's really important to communicate how to utilize them and how they are going to affect indigenous people, especially with the free, prior and informed consent of the United Nations declaration, which is law.

There needs to be better engagement on how those laws can be amended to make sure that this bill doesn't have unintended consequences. I would say if it isn't amended, there's quite possibly.... I think there needs to be more engagement on how this can better reflect the current realities of the United Nations declaration.

I don't know. It's really up to the committee whether you take our recommendations or not.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I guess you're giving us a yellow light when it comes to those—

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

I'm giving you a red flag.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Yes, exactly.

I would ask the same question of Vice-Chief Bear. If we're not successful in committee at amending those sections, would you prefer to see them dropped for further consultation?

[Vice-Chief Heather Bear]

Absolutely.

When we're looking at shaping the needs of gun reform, I think the impacts of the potential infringements are great. Those are treaty rights that are constitutionally protected. Also, when we talk about free, prior and informed consent in pointing to the UNDRIP, we need to do better there.

At the same time, I think there is a healthy process when we're talking about creating the narrative and conversation on how to better protect our women, children and men from gun violence. A lot of good could come out of those conversations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

That wraps up our questioning for this panel. I appreciate the panel for being here today to share with us their experience, knowledge and wisdom, and for helping us with this study.

With that, I will suspend. We'll bring in the next panel. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting back to order.

With us by video conference for the second hour, we have, as an individual, Francis Langlois, professor and associate researcher, Observatoire sur les États-Unis of the Raoul-Dandurand Chair of Strategic and Diplomatic Studies. We also have Dr. Caillin Langmann, assistant clinical professor in the department of medicine at McMaster University.

I will note that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests.

We will start by inviting each witness to provide an opening statement.

Mr. Langlois, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Francis Langlois, Professor and Associate Researcher, Observatoire sur les États-Unis of the Raoul-Dandurand Chair of Strategic and Diplomatic Studies, As an Individual]

Thank you very much for the invitation. I will use English just to be quicker.

I have been studying firearms culture, legislation and technology for many years. I'm here to talk about ghost guns—firearms that are not identified by a serial number. They are a growing public security issue. They have been found everywhere in North America, but here in Quebec in March 2021, a young man was arrested at the border with 248 ghost guns that were Glock 17 replicas. They are coming here through the border or they are made here.

I will propose a few ideas to help curb this growing threat to Canadian public security. One of the main ideas I will defend is to broaden the definition of what is a firearm, because at the moment, essentially, serial numbers are on one part of the firearm—the receiver—so people can either print or make a receiver from polymer or metal and then order the parts from the United States where it's legal to produce such parts. In American law, they are not considered weapons, so one barrel bought online is not considered a weapon. A slide is not considered a weapon either. If somebody buys it, there is no verification, so they are quite easy to get and perhaps even to get here. That's what I will talk about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, sir.

We'll now go to Dr. Langmann for five minutes, please.

[Dr. Caillin Langmann, Assistant Clinical Professor, Department of Medicine, McMaster University, As an Individual]

Thank you for letting me present my research regarding Canadian firearms legislation and its association with homicide, spousal homicide, mass homicide and suicide in Canada.

I am an assistant professor of medicine at McMaster University and an emergency physician in Hamilton. I serve as an academic peer reviewer in the areas of firearm control, homicide, suicide, violence and gang deterrence for academic journals and have four peer-reviewed publications on legislation and the effects on homicide and suicide in Canada.

I have submitted my studies and a report regarding the current proposed legislation to the committee. However, I will briefly summarize it.

Bill C-21 proposes two significant regulations: an essential ban on handgun sales and a regime allowing for emergency firearms prohibition orders. My research on previous Canadian legislation is applicable in answering the question of what the effects of this legislation may be.

Since 2003, the number of restricted firearms, including handguns, has doubled from 572,000 to 1.2 million. However, the rate of overall firearm homicide has not increased, nor has the rate of homicide by handguns. While there has been a recent increase similar to the levels in the early 2000s, the rates of homicides have actually fluctuated about a steady mean when statistical analysis is performed. Please see the graph attached to my brief.

In the 1990s, legislation banned over 550,000 firearms, many of them handguns. However, research has demonstrated that there was no statistically significant benefit regarding homicide, spousal homicide or mass homicide rates from this. While suicide by firearm decreased, hanging replaced it and no overall changes in suicide occurred. Other jurisdictions, such as Australia and England, have also applied significant controls to handguns and no statistically significant changes in homicide rates were detected.

In terms of emergency prohibition orders, currently a system exists where anyone can report a firearm owner to the CFO. I personally have been involved in this process as a physician with psychiatric patients and have found the response to be quick and efficient regarding the removal of firearms and licences.

For physicians, there's currently a system where one can detain a patient under an application for psychiatric assessment if one has justified concerns for homicidal or suicidal intentions. I utilize this method regularly. At such a point, we can explore risk reduction with suicidal patients. I have concerns about expanding this process further in terms of sharing confidential patient data with a CFO without consent. The Privacy Commissioner of Canada has also warned about this in their 2001 report on the firearms program.

In the 1990s, Canada made changes allowing people to report concerns to the CFO and allowing the CFO to revoke licences and confiscate firearms. Unfortunately, research demonstrates that these Canadian regulations have had no effect on homicide, spousal homicide or mass homicide rates. Interestingly, a recent study on protection orders in California also revealed no associated benefit from similar regulations.

In summary, the evidence so far demonstrates that handgun laws will have no associated reduction in homicide rates or overall suicide rates. The replacement of the current emergency protection system is redundant.

The proposed recent gun bans and new regulations may well cost billions of dollars to implement and enforce. The current finance minister announced recently that Canada will need to adopt equal cuts for all new spending. Nova Scotia needs to invest $500 million in its health care system. My city currently faces emergency wait times of six to eight hours, and it takes me months to have a psychiatric patient seen by psychiatry. The money being considered for these firearms programs would have greater effect being invested in health care where lives would benefit.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll start our rounds of questions now with Mr. Lloyd.

Go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start with Dr. Langmann.

A number of witnesses who have come before the committee from various sport shooting disciplines are concerned that this legislation is not going to exempt their sports. Other witnesses have come here and said that we cannot allow these sports to be exempt because it's a threat to public safety.

From your research, would you conclude that an expansion of an exemption for IPSC or mounted-shooting clubs will in any way have a negative impact on public safety?

[Dr. Caillin Langmann]

As I said before, over 550,000 firearms were banned, many of them short-barrelled handguns, in the 1990s, and there was no associated benefit from that.

I don't see how not allowing a relatively tiny group of users to have handguns would have any effect, especially when recent reports have shown that about 85% of handguns used in crimes are imported from the United States illegally.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Jumping on that, I heard Mr. Langlois talking about the prevalence of ghost guns, which we're very concerned about.

It feels like we have traditional approaches to constrict the supply of guns. I think Bill C-21 is definitely a traditional approach.

Given the reality of ghost guns, do you think that Bill C-21 will actually be effective in any way at reducing gun violence in Canada?

[Dr. Caillin Langmann]

I don't think so at all. The problem with a lot of the studies that are performed is there are so many substitute methods for obtaining firearms. It's even in U.S. studies. The ease and ability to transfer firearms across borders through various states makes a lot of those studies somewhat inconclusive.

I can't see this having any benefit at all.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Earlier in this study, we had witnesses from Canadian Doctors for Protection from Guns. They claimed that Bill C-21 and other similar gun control policies will significantly reduce the overall rate of suicide in Canada. They said they had strong evidence. They said they would provide it to committee. I just did a review this morning and they haven't provided that evidence to committee yet.

Other than your work in the Canadian context, I haven't seen any peer-reviewed study to suggest that this kind of legislation will reduce overall suicides. Are you aware of any evidence that suggests otherwise?

[Dr. Caillin Langmann]

For Canada in particular, I am not. A recent Canadian Medical Association Journal article came out showing that while firearm suicides do seem to go down in association with gun legislation, overall suicide stays the same. They ranked my studies, actually, as the highest-ranking studies within their review.

Other studies from Australia have also shown that while firearm suicide rates may decrease, overall suicide rates don't change. There are multiple studies involved and I have submitted those in my brief to this committee.

On the ease and ability for hanging, hanging is 80% effective for suicide, which is similar to firearms. When someone has serious intent, it's almost impossible to deter them. Unfortunately, as physicians we have no clinical decision rules or ability to really predict who's going to commit suicide.

When I see a patient and they own firearms, we discuss risk reduction. That means the CFO removes the firearms or they give them to their friends. The second thing I can give them is a referral to psychiatry for about eight months later. That's almost an insult.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Yes, that's something you mentioned.

With Bill C-21, we're talking about a gun buyback that the government is contemplating, which will potentially be in the billions of dollars. Do you think that money would be far better spent on addressing the mental health challenges in Canada? Would that actually have a greater effect on reducing suicide, reducing domestic abuse and reducing overall gun crime in this country?

[Dr. Caillin Langmann]

It would have a far greater effect.

I've been coming here for 10 years. People have said to me that they are increasing funding, but so far our wait-lists have increased, especially over the last two years.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Finally, we've had some witnesses who said they use single-action revolvers for their sports. We have people who use black powder, muzzle-loaded pistols from the 17th and 18th centuries. These are all considered handguns under this legislation.

Does your research indicate that those kinds of handguns are far less likely to be used by criminals?

[Dr. Caillin Langmann]

My research doesn't look into that, but other research has looked into what criminals prefer. They typically do prefer the firearms with ejectable magazines. That has changed over the years. Previously, they did use revolvers.

With restrictions in D.C. and other places in the United States, and restrictions in Australia, there has been no associated benefit in terms of reduction of homicide.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

We know there's already a very low likelihood that a licensed handgun owner is going to commit a crime. Would you conclude that it's fair to say that somebody who uses a muzzle-loaded, black powder firearm or a single-action revolver is at an even lower risk of being a public safety risk?

[Dr. Caillin Langmann]

I would suspect that's the case. I don't have evidence for that. I would strongly doubt it.