Evidence of meeting #45 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gun.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chief Terry Teegee  Regional Chief, British Columbia Assembly of First Nations
Heather Bear  Fourth Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations
Francis Langlois  Professor and Associate Researcher, Observatoire sur les États-Unis of the Raoul-Dandurand Chair of Strategic and Diplomatic Studies, As an Individual
Caillin Langmann  Assistant Clinical Professor, Department of Medicine, McMaster University, As an Individual

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I'm sorry, Chief, but I'll have to cut you off there. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

We'll now go to Mr. Garrison. Welcome to the committee.

You have six minutes, please.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I spent many years on the public safety committee in a previous Parliament. It's nice to be back. It's particularly nice to be here on a day when first nations representatives are here.

I want to start by acknowledging something very important that was said by Vice-Chief Bear. It's certainly something I hear quite often from the first nations in my riding. The T'Sou-ke Nation, the Sc'ianew First Nation, the Songhees Nation and the Esquimalt Nation all point to the lack of capacity to participate in all of the consultations that they're asked to participate in.

I think that's a very important point that was raised here. We have to provide capacity if we expect people to be able to participate meaningfully in consultations. I thank Vice-Chief Bear for that point.

I want to stay with Vice-Chief Bear just for a moment.

In the discussions about red flag laws, it's been pointed out that they're another alternative to going to the police to deal with domestic violence because of the lack of trust, and they might be useful to first nations. I wonder whether first nations have any greater trust in the firearms officers or the court system. Is the red flag law really a solution that will be useful to first nations in dealing with things like domestic violence?

11:40 a.m.

Fourth Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations

Vice-Chief Heather Bear

I think what we're going into is very complex, and here again there's a need to do meaningful consultation to help shape gun reform. I think that requires a lot more consultation, discussion and thought.

When it comes to first nations and the relationship with policing, and especially when it comes to missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and violence against women, often our women are not believed. We know that. We know that we're already underserved when it comes to protection. We know that response time is probably the biggest grievance we have in terms of policing for women who are in vulnerable situations or for our vulnerable populations.

When it comes to gun control and red flag or yellow flag situations, the one concern I have is that it goes deeper. I'm thinking about what happened in James Smith Cree Nation with release plans. Regional Chief Teegee pointed to prevention, release plans and knowing your people, and to the need for policing as being essential to first nations. I'm talking about on reserve.

The one thing we lack here is authentic policing where police officers truly care authentically. There is a lack of culturally sensitive training. Also, they're not in the community to know their people, and I think that's a huge gap. That's along with the gap in addictions and mental health. Those things are all lacking within our communities.

We lack the capacity here to truly come to a conclusion on who should have a gun or who shouldn't have a gun. When we live in a community and we're part of a community, our leaders know. I really think there should have been more consultation on this matter with respect to violence against women and the critical issues that impact children and families.

Is this legislation really going to solve crime? I really don't think so. When you look at the licensing part of it, I really don't see this legislation impacting in a big way. It might in some ways, for things like prevention, seizing guns or prohibiting someone from having a gun if they have a history of violence. I agree with that. As I say, it's a tough question.

I think when somebody is going to commit a crime, they're going to commit a crime whether they have a licence or not. I really think we have a lot of work to do on prevention and providing more programs to support women who are in violent situations and abusive situations.

I'm sorry for going into the forest there, but you're asking a very complex question.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you, Vice-Chief Bear.

You remind me of something that long-time hereditary chief of the Esquimalt Nation Andy Thomas always said to me. He said, “We tell you what we need, and you come back and consult us on some other shiny thing. You should just listen to us in the first place.”

I think both you and Regional Chief Teegee have talked about the things that first nations have put forward on policing and dealing with domestic violence. Now we're talking to you about something else altogether. That was one of the frustrations that Chief Thomas always had.

I'm out of time.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Mr. Garrison. I know you need a lot more time on this, but there will be another opportunity.

That brings our first round of questions to a close. We'll start our second round. This will have to be abbreviated. We will end this round after Mr. Garrison.

We will resume this round with Mr. Shipley.

Go ahead for five minutes, sir.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I prepared a whole list of questions, but I am not going to ask any of those as my first one because, Vice-Chief Bear, you said something in your opening remarks that really stuck with me, and I'd like you to expand on it a bit, if you could, please. I've written it down here as a quote. You stated, “when you confiscate guns, you are doing a whole lot more than just taking away a gun.”

Could you expand on that and what you meant by it?

11:45 a.m.

Fourth Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations

Vice-Chief Heather Bear

We view a gun from a hunter's perspective and a treaty rights perspective. It's a tool. It's a tool that we use for doing a lot of things.

I talked about, for example, our rites of passage of the young hunters, the young boys. When you go out to hunt, you're not just hunting. You're teaching your child courage and you're bonding. You are passing on protocols, ceremonial protocols, of how to look after your kill. There are the rites of passage, the reverence to the animal and the tobacco. Along with that tool comes many teachings and also matters of safety. When you take a gun away, you take away the opportunity for that oral tradition to happen.

The gun is also used, of course, to provide sustenance to elders. When we look at poverty, we supplement our incomes with wild meat. Also, there's our food sovereignty and the way of life, the culture, that we were promised in treaties. A sacred covenant was made that we would always have that way, and to take away the gun takes away so much of who we are and where we come from.

That's what I meant by that statement.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

Thank you for expanding on that.

I'd like to address my next question to Vice-Chief Bear and Regional Chief Teegee.

Quite frankly, do you feel that Bill C-21 will assist with any crime issues in your communities?

Who would like to start? I'd like to ask both.

11:50 a.m.

Regional Chief, British Columbia Assembly of First Nations

Regional Chief Terry Teegee

From a criminal's perspective, quite simply, perhaps it will.

This comes around to Bill C-21 and guns utilized in urban centres. There's also the fact that more often than not, there is a connection between our first nations communities and urban centres, where many of our young people get involved in gangs. If this prevents the use of handguns and mechanized weapons within gang violence, perhaps it will prevent crime.

At the same time, as Vice-Chief Bear said, if there is a will and a way for some of this to happen, more often than not it does. Certainly the hope is that it prevents some of the gang violence. I think that's one of the things we're really concerned about.

11:50 a.m.

Fourth Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations

Vice-Chief Heather Bear

When you look at the reality from a first nations' perspective, as I've stated, one of the biggest grievances first nations have is response time. As to whether having a licence to carry a gun is going to make a difference when it comes to violence with guns, I really don't see the legislation impacting on reserve. Off reserve, when you're looking at some of the gang violence and the access to guns, I really don't think this legislation is going to curb a criminal when they intend to do crime with a gun. They're not going to stop to think of whether or not they have a licence. They really don't care.

I believe the ones who are going to be impacted the most by this legislation are the hunters and maybe the trappers because of handgun use. Quite frankly, I don't believe this legislation is truly going to do what the spirit of it intends in terms of resolving crime. Maybe it will to a small per cent, but a criminal is going to do crime whether they have a gun licence or not.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

We'll now go to Mr. Noormohamed, for five minutes, please.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here.

Ms. Bear, I'd like to start with you. Obviously, one of the things we want to try to prevent is domestic violence, and one of the concerns, of course, that has been raised by many women's group is that the presence and preponderance of guns in homes has led to additional cases of violence against women.

My understanding is that indigenous communities are no different in this regard. Can you share a little about your experiences—and Chief Teegee, maybe you can also weigh in on this—where guns in homes in your communities have caused challenges related to domestic violence?

11:50 a.m.

Fourth Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations

Vice-Chief Heather Bear

In terms of first nations, because we are probably the most vulnerable of the vulnerable in this country, there is always that worry that our children or families can be harmed when it comes to matters of guns.

The problem that we have is that often when women report domestic violence, they are never believed. A lot of the progression here, to the point of violence with guns, can probably be prevented at a very early stage, but there again we are getting to a very complex thing. We're talking about gun safety and our women and children being safe—and men, of course. It does happen vice versa.

Until we really take a good look at this gun legislation and whether or not it's going to stop domestic violence when it comes to guns.... I guess that's the question. Maybe in a small percentage it will, but I would rather look at prevention and tribal policing. Our police forces on reserve would know our communities and our people.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

Right, but before I go to Chief Teegee, just to follow up on that with you, do you not think it is a good idea to take away guns from those who are engaging in domestic violence in the home?

11:55 a.m.

Fourth Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations

Vice-Chief Heather Bear

Absolutely. I have no problem with that, which is what I mean when I say that when you know your people, you know who should have access to a gun and who shouldn't. I do agree with that in some instances, but as I said, my worry is that with some of the systemic racism and what we and our hunters face, there's another narrative that this would open the door for more of that harassment—

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

Sure.

11:55 a.m.

Fourth Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations

Vice-Chief Heather Bear

—of people who are innocent hunters.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

I think we're all in agreement that prevention is very important. I don't think there is any question there. It is also important that we address issues of systemic racism. There is no question about that. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Chief Teegee, very briefly, what is your experience regarding guns in homes and domestic violence?

Then I'm going to give the remainder of my time to my colleague, Mr. Chiang.

November 3rd, 2022 / 11:55 a.m.

Regional Chief, British Columbia Assembly of First Nations

Regional Chief Terry Teegee

Thank you for that question, and certainly, it's a very difficult one.

For me, if you're talking about communities, my uncle was shot and murdered by gun violence. That was over 30 years ago, and certainly at that time there were none of these laws. The relations with police were perhaps not as good. I think what has changed is the relationship with the RCMP, in that there is more involvement with our chiefs and council, and knowing the community. At that time, I think the issues were the unresolved issues of residential schools and the ongoing issues of the next generation dealing with that, with the violence that was brought back to the communities. Unresolved issues with mental health and addiction really contributed to the death of my uncle.

I think we're getting better. I know in my community there are preventative measures. There are more opportunities for our youth. They are really coming down on the issues of drugs within the community. It's not the same for all communities. We're not all in the same place.

I think in speaking to this that perhaps some of these issues.... Albeit Bill C‑21 has good intentions for stemming the tide of gun violence and gang violence, I think there are unintended consequences. What we're really voicing here with my colleague from FSIN is that those first nations people who are law-abiding citizens are utilizing this as part of their traditions, as part of their treaty and as part of their culture, especially when it comes to subsistence hunting and trapping.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, sir, and thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

We'll now go to Madame Michaud.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Vice‑Chief Bear, I will continue on the subject of gang‑related violence.

I read in a Global News article that...

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

My apologies, Ms. Michaud. You have two and a half minutes, not six minutes.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Okay.

A first nation in northern Saskatchewan reinstated a state of emergency following gang- and drug‑related incidents. The first nation asked the federal government for help in controlling crime. You were quoted as follows in this article:

We need immediate action for this community. They’re in a crisis. Their school, their children, they deserve to be safe, they deserve to be protected from gangs. And I call on the gangs to please stop what you’re doing, and quit selling death to our people.

Some communities are currently the direct or collateral victims of gang‑related violence.

Do you think Bill C‑21 would help fix this problem? One of the clauses in the bill is aimed at fixing the problem of illegal firearms and their trafficking by increasing maximum sentences for these crimes. In my opinion, this will not change much, but I would like to hear what you have to say.

Do you think Bill C‑21 will have a positive impact on reducing gang‑related violence?

Noon

Fourth Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations

Vice-Chief Heather Bear

Thank you for listening and hearing what has been going on in the north and in many of our communities.

When you look at whether the legislation will have a positive impact on what's happening, as an example, in the north, I can't really say for sure. When someone is doing crime, they really don't care. I think the laws are in place to seize guns when crime is happening. When you're dealing with drug- and gun-related violence, there are laws already in place to take a gun away. People doing crime really aren't looking at the law. They're already doing the crime. I really don't see how this bill is going to prevent those things from happening.

Again, I think we're looking at mental health. We're looking at addictions. I think we need to really focus on preventative measures not only in, for example, the release plans for people coming out of jail after doing violent crimes, but also in terms of mental health. I think we could do better there.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Ms. Bear.

We'll now go to Mr. Garrison for two and a half minutes.