Evidence of meeting #46 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was licence.
A recording is available from Parliament.
8 p.m.
Liberal
8 p.m.
Executive Director, Battered Women's Support Services
—could be given different names and take different forms. We are concerned with the lack of consultation to date on how to define them in the regulation and we would want to ensure that the definition of protection orders is included in the act.
Thank you.
8 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you.
We'll start our rounds of questions at this point. We will start with Mr. Lloyd for six minutes.
Go ahead, please.
8 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank all the witnesses for being here and especially for the great work you do in our communities. I come from a rural community, and we just got the first new women's shelter in rural Alberta since 1984. It is a needed thing for our rural communities as well as for our urban communities, so thank you for the often thankless work that you ladies do in our communities.
I find something interesting.
Ms. MacDougall, you were saying that there's not good enough data on firearms and femicides, but do any of you have possibly any data that breaks down whether or not the firearms being used in femicides or the perpetrators of the femicides are legal gun owners or illegal gun owners, licensed gun owners or non-licensed gun owners? Do you have any anecdotal information about that?
Maybe I'll start with Ms. Martin.
8 p.m.
Executive Director, Women's Shelters Canada
Actually, yes. I could get the exact citations, but I believe, according to the Canadian Femicide Observatory, most women who are killed with guns are killed by legal gun owners.
8 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
That is surprising to me, and I would appreciate it if you could send that data to us as well.
8 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Ms. Riendeau, you also said that the risk factors are not identified. You might agree, or maybe I'm wrong, that it's not a spouse committing a homicide that is the first risk factor that's seen. In some cases it might happen, but there are usually risk factors leading up to that. Would you say that's correct?
8 p.m.
Co-responsible, Political Issues, Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale
Yes.
In many cases of femicide, some of which even resulted in the death of children, there were risk factors. The most important risk factor is often the presence of past domestic abuse that was not taken into consideration or taken seriously by the police. There are other risk factors, such as depression in a spouse, which is not always considered.
Also, some scientifically recognized risk factors do not always seem to be known by police departments or a number of responders, hence the need for training. We also know that police services will focus on incidents that are recognized as offences. However, domestic or family violence manifests itself in all sorts of ways that, taken in isolation, may seem trivial. That is why we are saying that responders and police need to be trained.
8 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
I agree. Thank you. I appreciate that.
Ms. MacDougall, we've heard testimony—and I knew this before we had this study—that the Canadian firearms program currently doesn't contact every reference when completing a firearms licence application. You have to put down your spouse or your common-law partner or even past spouses, and they have to consent to your receiving a firearms licence.
Does it concern you that the Canadian firearms program has the tools to call these references to ask if they have concerns, but 90% of them are not being called, as one witness stated?
8:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Battered Women's Support Services
Absolutely. I think that is one of the real problems when we think about what this will look like on the ground. We know it's very hard to follow through on this kind of follow-up, this important follow-up, and we see this in all areas within the system, in terms of the criminal response, regardless of what the aspect of domestic violence is. It has to do with some difficulties with the way in which employees interpret their roles and also the overall kind of continuous lack of concern about the lethality of domestic violence and family violence.
November 3rd, 2022 / 8:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Thank you.
Something I've observed is that it seems as though we do have a lot of tools available, but the tragedies we've seen have been primarily caused by our not using those tools in the way that is needed. Currently we don't have the resources to identify when somebody has a mental illness and, even in the case of the Canadian firearms program, we're not calling the references. We're not using the tools that we have available in order to really prevent these terrible tragedies and these terrible crimes from happening, yet we're putting more legislation on when we're not using the tools that we have available now.
I agree with what you and all the witnesses were saying about the protection orders. I think there are tweaks that we can make that will improve this, but wouldn't you agree that, until we're actually putting the resources into accountability and into ensuring that the tools that we have are being used, we're not going to see a drop in domestic violence with firearms? Would there be broad agreement?
8:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Battered Women's Support Services
I do agree with that. It is certainly a concern that we have. I know that advocates end up having to follow up to see that the system does follow through on the policies, as well as the practices. Canada has some of the best legislation to address sexualized and domestic violence, but unfortunately we continue to see where the system fails repeatedly. It's a bigger cultural shift that we need.
8:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Thank you.
Madame Riendeau, I have limited time left, but I'd like to hear your perspective, as I see your hand is up.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
You have no time left, but certainly the witness can answer.
Go ahead.
8:05 p.m.
Co-responsible, Political Issues, Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale
I would add that the way to make a difference is to move away from discretionary powers and instead put strong language into the legislation. This would give chief firearms officers obligations, not just powers.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.
We go now to Ms. Damoff for six minutes, please.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses today.
Ms. Martin, I will apologize on behalf of the committee for the short notice. I know that all of the witnesses are doing good work to save women's lives, and the time you take to prepare and appear before the committee is greatly appreciated by all of us.
I want to ask about red flags because we have heard conflicting testimony on that provision in the bill. I've spoken with the women's shelter in my riding about the fact that this is an additional tool that is not meant to replace calling the police, but a tool that a woman could use. For example, if she is married to a police officer, she's probably not comfortable calling the police. Likewise, if she's an indigenous woman she might have a complete mistrust in the police because she might get arrested for a probation order violation, which is a true story.
We've heard testimony that we should get rid of it completely. Are you opposed to this being an additional tool, because it has been tweaked from the original Bill C‑21 so that this can now be done anonymously and also so that someone else can go to court on behalf of the woman.
I'm just wondering about that. Perhaps, Ms. Martin, we can start with you, and then I welcome the other ladies chiming in on it.
8:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Women's Shelters Canada
Sure.
It definitely is an additional tool, but I think the other side of that coin is that we have to make sure that the onus doesn't fall on the women. By having that tool, the other piece of this, the part that we were just talking about, which is the responsibility of the firearms officers, is that we need to ensure there is not confusion about responsibility.
I think in the cases you've cited—and these are happening every day in all provinces and territories—it could be a useful tool, and adding the anonymous component is important to that.
I think my concern is about the responsiveness within the judicial system, so if we're going to do this.... It's like other measures we've talked about within the bill, that implementation really is going to be key, and for implementation to happen you need goodwill and you need resources. You need more than goodwill to be honest, because you need accountability so that people understand that this is part of their jobs.
I'll leave it at that and allow my other colleagues to respond as well.
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Yes. No one wants to put the onus on the victim at all. This is a very difficult life-threatening situation that women find themselves in.
8:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Women's Shelters Canada
You'd want to make sure that they can easily have access to that judicial system, for example, and either a shelter or another service provider, so that there is that easy access for that reporting mechanism and so that the reporting mechanism will be swift as well.
8:10 p.m.
Co-responsible, Political Issues, Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale
We have asked that the “red flag” measures be removed because we believe that they may harm more women than they would help, although it is true that these measures may be relevant to some women in the situations you mention. In practice, however, in everyday life, we have often seen police officers fail to take responsibility.
I will give you an example. In the Criminal Code, section 810 makes it possible to apply for a peace bond. Normally, when a person says they fear for their safety, the police should investigate and notify the prosecutor. The person may also do so themselves. However, there have been many instances where police officers have told victims to ask their lawyer to do so. Unfortunately, women have lost their lives in the meantime.
We believe that police departments must fulfill their duties. Every effort must be made to prevent this measure from enabling police officers to avoid their responsibilities. We think that, in the heat of the moment, with all the work that police officers have to do, they are very likely to ask the woman to take her own measures.
If the “red flag” measures are maintained, mechanisms are needed to prevent police officers and the department that handles gun control from shirking their responsibilities.
Having to go back to court, especially to request that children be cared for despite the spouse's refusal, is always a difficult and arduous process for a woman. When she is fleeing abuse, she has a lot to deal with.
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Can I just interrupt you and ask a question?
If a woman is married to a police officer and is being abused, and the police officer has a gun in the home, whom should she call?
I'm not trying to be cheeky.