Public Safety Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Mr. Chiang, you have eight seconds. What can you do with them?

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I will thank my former colleagues, the Winnipeg Police Service, for their time and their information sharing with us.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you.

I will now call upon Ms. Michaud.

Ms. Michaud, you have six minutes to pose your questions. The floor is yours, please. Take it away.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for accepting our invitation and joining us today. We are very grateful to them.

My questions go to Grand Chief Benedict and Chief Adams-Philips. I invite them to give us as much information as possible.

Grand Chief Benedict and Chief Adams-Philips, you say that your territory is unique because of its geographic location. According to a number of reports in some media, it is a well-known arms route and traffickers can use it to their advantage.

Are you concerned by the illegal firearms trafficking on your territory? Are you worried about the safety of your community?

Do you feel that you have the resources you need to combat this trafficking?

[Shawn Dulude]

Did you say that your questions were for Grand Chief Benedict and Chief Adams-Philips?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

You can certainly feel free to add any comments, Mr. Dulude.

[Shawn Dulude]

Okay.

I believe that I am in a better position than they are to answer those questions.

Clearly, our geographic location makes it more profitable for the people involved in those kinds of activities. Are we adequately equipped to combat it? No, we are not. We do not have the personnel we need to conduct round-the-clock surveillance of our waterways and all the land leading to the St. Lawrence River.

As the Grand Chief explained right at the start, our territory is divided into three districts. One is in Quebec, one is in Ontario, and one is in the United States. This makes our work very difficult. In Canada, the Criminal Code is in force. The same laws apply in Ontario or in Quebec. Our work becomes more difficult when we have to cross the border into the United States during the day to respond to calls for service and for our daily patrols. It happens all the time. The criminals crossing our territory and looking to profit from their crimes know it as well.

Basically, two customs points allow access onto the territory: Dundee and Cornwall. There are no other customs points, apart from those. In our community, we have seven roads that are not controlled. If we are chasing a smuggler, for example, and we cross the international border, the pursuit ends. We know where our boundaries are and the criminals know it too. So, to answer your question, it does make our work very much harder.

The St. Lawrence River forms a border of our territory too. This also makes our work harder because it requires a specialized marine patrol unit. We are equipped to do that and we do it very well. We have made many seizures through the years. Last year, we increased the number of seizures. We are not just talking about firearms although, a few weeks ago, we made a major seizure of not only firearms but also of narcotics. That was headline news. We also deal with undocumented people trying to enter and leave the country.

As Grand Chief Benedict explained, we have a bilateral agreement with Ontario that gives us a marine patrol. But the funds that Ontario provides to us are not sufficient to have patrols around the clock, seven days a week. A week ago, I made a request to Quebec's Department of Public Security, asking them for a similar agreement, so that we can fill that gap.

Do not forget that the river can still be used by smugglers to bring in their contraband, even when it is frozen. They can use automobiles and snowmobiles, or motor boats, if some sections of water remain open.

So the geography of the territory makes our work very difficult and the fact that we are under the jurisdiction of different states makes it even more difficult. In effect, we are in the centre, with the St. Lawrence River to the north and the United States to the south. Our authority as peace officers and as police ends as soon as we cross the border with the United States.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

You say that not being able to go where your authority ends complicates your work. But do you consider that exchanging information or working with other police services, for example, is enough to continue the work where you yourselves have to stop?

[Shawn Dulude]

When I say that we have to stop, I am speaking literally. However, of course, we share all the information on criminal activities, in both directions. We are also part of various groups, including the integrated border enforcement teams, or IBET. We are not responsible for law enforcement in that team, but we are responsible for all intelligence on criminal activities.

Recently, we have also requested to be part of the Criminal Intelligence Service Ontario, the CISO. This is because of the investigations we have to conduct and that we want to be part of in order to arrest individuals trafficking firearms or engaged in other criminal activities. They all start with gathering intelligence on criminal matters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Sir, we're out of time. If you could please wind down your answer in a few seconds, I'd appreciate that.

Thank you.

[Shawn Dulude]

For our operations to be successful and for this plague to be defeated, we first have to share the intelligence we have on criminal activities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

For the last slot in the opening round, I will turn to Mr. MacGregor, who will have six minutes.

Mr. MacGregor, go ahead.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I get to my questions, I want to inform committee members that I want to read a notice of motion into the record.

The notice of motion is as follows:

That the Committee invite representatives from GoFundMe to appear as soon as possible to answer questions regarding security measures the company has in place to ensure the funds are not being used to promote extremism, white supremacy, anti-Semitism and other forms of hate, which have been expressed among prominent organizers for the truck convoy currently in Ottawa, including:

a) how the company prevents the use of anonymity to funnel money to extremist groups;

b) what measures are in place to prevent foreign funds from being used to support these views, and to the subgroups that have expressed an intent to put in place their own undemocratic government; and

c) what measures and assurances are in place to ensure the $1 million that has already been released is not going towards promoting any of the forms of the aforementioned unacceptable views and activities.

Mr. Chair, that's the notice of motion I've put on the record. I understand that it would require the unanimous consent of the committee for this motion to be moved today. Given the displays of anti-Semitism and harassment we have seen over the past week in the city of Ottawa and some of the extremist behaviour, I was wondering if my colleagues would give unanimous consent for me to move this motion today and to have a quick vote on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Is there unanimous consent in the committee to approve this motion? I'll ask any member who is opposed to the motion to raise their hand.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Chair, I just have a question. I'm not voting either way at this time. I'm just asking a question, if I may.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Go ahead.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I'm just not clear on the procedure. In prior committees, when motions have been brought forward, it was deemed out of order when it wasn't to do with the committee at hand.

I recognize this is a pressing and timely issue for the NDP and for all Canadians, but I also recognize that Ms. Michaud's study is on the table right now. There are committee witnesses and it's difficult to get their time if they are very busy.

I'm just wondering if the clerk can weigh in on the technical procedure side of this. Is it better left to the end of this meeting? When can we address this? From previous experience, I know these types of things have been ruled out of order. Can you just enlighten us in that regard, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Mr. Clerk, would you please let us know whether this motion is in order?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Wassim Bouanani]

Certainly, Mr. Chair.

It's a notice of motion, so it's not related to the topic of the day. Mr. MacGregor can read it into the record and he can give a notice of motion. The motion cannot be debated today unless there's unanimous consent. This can be done now or later, at the discretion of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Is there unanimous consent for the motion to be debated now? Let me ask if there are any members opposed to that by a show of hands.

Yes, Madame Michaud.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think it's a shame that we are wasting time on this, given that the witnesses are willingly participating in the committee meeting today. Perhaps we could set aside a little time of the end of our meeting to discuss the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Clearly we don't have unanimous consent to deal with this motion now, so we will proceed. We have witnesses who are lined up to answer questions.

Mr. MacGregor, it is your slot, so I would turn the platform back to you and ask you to pose your questions, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want other committee members to know that I'm going to be respectful of their time. I've been keeping track of this intervention. I'm going to limit myself to one question to the Akwesasne.

I'm not sure which of you would like to take a crack at answering this. In the ministerial mandate letter for the Minister of Public Safety, there was a commitment for the minister to “[c]ontinue to work with First Nations partners to co-develop a legislative framework for First Nations policing, and continuing to engage with Inuit and Métis on policing matters. [The minister] will be supported by the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations.”

Now, I know that your nation is quite far ahead of many first nations right across Canada, so perhaps you have some insight on what that legislative framework could look like, or what you would like to see as first steps in developing it, for nations right across our country.

Thank you.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

We're obviously open to codevelopment in legislation, but more particularly, in our community, there has to be recognition of our jurisdiction and authority. What happens in our jurisdiction is that there are two provincial boundaries. In other legislation, it devolves the legislative authority to the provinces. What happens in our community is that, depending on what part of the community you are in, it may be under Ontario legislation or Quebec legislation. In police services, if it's devolved to the provinces, in one part of the community it will determine how you react as a police agency, and in the other part it will be completely different, because it's in Ontario and in Quebec.

So there has to be special consideration in any legislation, even outside of police services, that considers cross-provincial boundary communities like ours.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Mr. MacGregor, you have about 10 seconds.