Evidence of meeting #52 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was firearms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
We are trying to understand the process related to the list.
Gentlemen, can you explain to us, in general terms, how the Royal Canadian Mounted Police firearm classification process normally works?
4:05 p.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
The classification of the firearm itself, as I indicated earlier, is based on an assessment of the characteristics of the firearm and how they compare with the parameters in part III of the Criminal Code, which affect classification. Everything pertinent about the firearm is determined and evaluated against those criteria. A decision is then made as to what classification it falls into.
In terms of the administrative procedure, the goal of the organization that produces the firearms reference table is to determine the classifications of firearms as early as possible, in order to populate the FRT with a description of the firearm and its classification long before any arrive in Canada, so that when the firearm does arrive, it is dealt with by customs and other authorities in the appropriate manner.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
You mentioned criteria. Are the criteria you use to classify weapons public?
4:05 p.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes. The criteria are in section 84 of the Criminal Code. There are a variety of criteria that affect the classification of firearms in several different ways.
Each portion of section 84 deals with firearms for certain purposes in its own way. There's no standard way of dealing with this. In some cases a firearm could be prohibited because the barrel, for example, is cut down. In other cases the firearm could be prohibited because it fires in a fully automatic manner.
In the case of the schedule we're speaking about today, a firearm could become prohibited because it is a varied or modified version of a firearm that's named in the regulations. A firearm could also become prohibited if it's chambered for a calibre that produces an energy over 10,000 joules of muzzle energy. A firearm could become prohibited if it has a bore diameter of over 20 millimetres, and so on. There are many different criteria that apply in different ways.
The process would be to look at the characteristics of the firearm and determine whether or not they interact with any of these criteria that are sprinkled through the Criminal Code and the associated regulations.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Is the reasonable use of a weapon for hunting, for example, one of these considerations?
4:05 p.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
For the purposes of producing the firearms reference table, no. The classification is based entirely on the criteria that are published in the Criminal Code and the regulations.
4:05 p.m.
Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Could I interject one more clarification?
As Mr. Smith has indicated, the firearms reference table is a law enforcement tool, and the classification determinations made by the Canadian firearms program are not legal determinations. They are simply tools that are available to law enforcement to help law enforcement determine whether or not a specific firearm is restricted, non-restricted or prohibited.
The final determination of the classification of a firearm is made by the courts. At any point, the classification determination made by the CFP can be challenged in court or by the CITT, the Canadian International Trade Tribunal.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Ms. Clarke.
It has been brought to our attention that some of the firearms that have been added to the schedule are firearms reasonably used for hunting, even though these models were originally intended for military use. I will not name the hundreds of models, but I am thinking in particular of the Benelli M1 Super 90, semi-automatic. The latter has so-called tactical variants with a pistol grip that would now be illegal. Other variants with a more classic shape would be fully legal.
Is this what we're supposed to understand?
4:10 p.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I'm not completely sure which firearm you're referring to.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
I am talking about the Benelli M1 Super 90.
4:10 p.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Okay. The Benelli M1 and M3 shotguns are listed in clause 7 of the proposed schedule. Some of the Benelli shotguns are listed as prohibited variants by the way they're listed in the schedule. Others are listed as exempted shotguns, so the regulation has no effect on them.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
4:10 p.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I'm sorry. I'll repeat that.
The Benelli M1 and M3 shotguns, which are found in clause 7 of the proposed schedule to part III of the code, and which are in the existing regulations and have been there since the 1990s, are divided into two groups.
There are those Benelli M1 and M3 shotguns that are prohibited, and all known variants are listed in that clause, clause 7, as prohibited variants. However, there are some models that are listed in the schedule as being exempted from the effect of the schedule, likewise in the regulations that are currently in force. Those models would remain either non-restricted or restricted, depending upon their characteristics.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Are we to understand that among the characteristics that make one model prohibited but not another is the shape of the handle? Is it based on visual characteristics? In the case of two firearms of exactly the same power but different appearance, could one be prohibited but not the other?
Is this correct, or am I completely wrong?
4:10 p.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I can't speak directly to what was in the mind of the policy-maker who made the decision to create this list as it was. However, by analyzing clause 7, it's plain to see that models of the Benelli M1 and M3 shotguns that are in a hunting configuration are exempted as non-restricted firearms, and those that are in a tactical configuration are prohibited.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
If I understand correctly, then it's the appearance of the firearm that is taken into account. The fact that a firearm looks like a military firearm or a hunting shotgun distinguishes prohibited models from non-prohibited models. Is this correct?
4:10 p.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
It's the totality of the characteristics. The M1 and M3 shotguns started out as military shotguns that were later modified to make them acceptable for hunting purposes, so there would be a combination of accessories, which you could describe as appearance, but it has more to do with ergonomics for the shotgun. It's a combination of physical characteristics like the configuration of the stock and the configuration for the sights. Also, the tactical versions generally have a shorter barrel than the hunting shotguns, and they may have a larger magazine as well, so there are some mechanical differences between them.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
So it is not just about the mechanical configuration of the firearm. For example, whether a firearm has a pistol grip is not the only criterion for determining whether it is a military firearm or a hunting shotgun; there is also the magazine capacity and barrel characteristics.
4:15 p.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, I would agree with that, but I would emphasize that it's based on the functional characteristics of the firearm. It's not just a question of appearance. It's the fact that certain things, like shorter barrels, have more utility in a tactical application, as opposed to a longer barrel, which would be used for hunting, for instance.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Can I interrupt just for a minute? The sound in the room is as high as it can go without causing feedback. For members who can't hear, I would recommend you use your earpiece.
4:15 p.m.
A voice
It's not helping a lot.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
It's not helping a lot? Okay. I'm sorry.
Ms. Michaud, you may continue.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Smith, in your experience, are firearms that have a tactical configuration commonly used for hunting?