Public Safety Committee on Feb. 10th, 2023

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

The strategy of the service is, unfortunately—because some of it is not under its control—to leave the inmate population in a compete state of destitution. The inmates cannot get ahead. If you cannot get ahead because you can't get enough pay to purchase canteen items, to make your stay a little more comfortable, maybe to buy gifts for your family or save some money for when you are going to be released from prison, then you end up in an underground economy that is very harmful. Basically, people will do anything they can to get ahead, including sexual violence and coercion, including drug trading and bullying, and all sorts of things. Inmate pay is really important.

Also, it's not a good message. If I were to ask you, as members of Parliament, if it would be acceptable that your pay be set in 1981 and not have been increased ever since, despite inflation, despite everything, you would say that's not fair, that's not okay.

Why is it okay for those who are incarcerated?

That's a really core—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Very quickly.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Food is also really important. Because the food is so unappealing, most now complement their diet with the canteen. The canteen looks like your local IGA or Metro or Sobeys. They sell protein there. They sell chicken, pizza—all sorts of food. Institutions no longer cook for 100% of their residents. They cook for about 70%, because they know not everyone will eat the food. Otherwise it will be wasted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Zinger.

Ms. Michaud, you now have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to go ahead and continue in the same vein, as Mr. Noormohamed beat me to it.

When I visited the Port‑Cartier Institution, we had the opportunity to meet with an inmate committee—I think that's what it's called. One thing they told us about were the challenges faced by inmates. We talked about it in connection with the rising cost of living, which affects everyone, including inmates.

There was a little chart next to the canteen. I thought the sandwiches were overpriced given how much the inmates are paid for the work they do. I can obviously ask you questions about everything in this year's report, but that really struck me. I sent a letter to Minister Mendicino and the Commissioner of the Correctional Service of Canada to tell them nothing had changed for years.

Have you made any recommendations about this or do you plan to make any?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Yes, for many years we've documented the issue of wages paid to inmates.

Of course, it's a difficult issue politically speaking, and I accept that. However, I think that Correctional Service Canada could still be a little bit more innovative in trying to address this issue, maybe ensuring that they increase the purchasing power of inmates without even changing the maximum wage of $6.90 a day.

They take a lot of deductions off that $6.90. As I told you, only about 10% of the inmate population have that maximum wage. Eliminating deductions and having a subsidy to reduce the cost of items that can be purchased would improve the situation.

There are all sorts of potential strategies. They could make some items that inmates currently have to buy free, things as basic as toothpaste and soap, and aspirin or other health-related items.

Things could be improved even without changing the wages. Correctional Service Canada has not done that. In my opinion, that's very little money in a budget of almost $3 billion. They spend less that six dollars a day per inmate on food. We must keep that in mind as well. That's a really small amount.

You're talking about the Port‑Cartier Institution. It may be one of the best establishments for food in the whole country because they've been able to find ways to improve the menu due to their remote location. Among other things, they started making their own bread and all kinds of—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Zinger.

Those are very good answers, but very long. They are appreciated, though.

Mr. MacGregor, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I just want to make a quick comment on the food issue. That visit to Kent Institution with Mr. Noormohamed was a real eye-opener. It made me feel glad I had a visitor's badge attached when I walked through those gates.

It was just incredible. Both those institutions—Mountain and Kent—are in Agassiz, B.C., surrounded by the most fertile farmland that British Columbia has to offer. It is just incredible that we're not pumping up the local economy and buying local food. In a previous life, I was a tree planter—I did it for eight years—and I know that the quality of the food served in camp has a huge impact on morale. If it's not good, you can have a mutiny.

I just want to underline the fact that having good-quality food can be such a huge boost to morale and to overall behaviour. It's really incredible.

Dr. Zinger, you said that with a $3-billion budget—with that kind of money—we should have world-class results. It's obvious that we do not.

I am just incredibly frustrated, because we just keep talking about the Correctional Service of Canada, but the buck stops with the Minister of Public Safety. Our job as legislators is not only to look at the authorizing legislation—the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. We also have to hold the ministry of public safety accountable.

I guess my very basic question to you is, what can we as opposition members of Parliament do to help you out? Do you need legislative change? Do you need the minister to take a more forceful role? Ultimately, the Correctional Service of Canada is answerable to the minister, who holds his position by confidence of the House of Commons.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

That's a tough one and a loaded one, but yes, the fact remains that the Corrections and Conditional Release Act dates back to 1992. It was introduced by the Mulroney government, and it was a very good piece of legislation that breeds charter rights protection and administrative law principles, but it has been eroded over the years. Under the Harper government, it was further eroded.

It's 30 years old. It needs to be revamped.

My office, as part of our frustration.... When the Trudeau government introduced new legislation, it took about three tries to address the administrative segregation issue. It was done without consultation. It just added frustration. My office produced what a corrections and conditional release act 2.0 would look like if you started with fresh principles that are consistent with what we know best in corrections.

Yes, a legislation change would certainly be welcome.

The problem with the approach on solitary confinement was that it was in response to a class action lawsuit. It was very narrow in trying to address that, and it didn't ask the tough question of why so many people end up in segregation. Maybe it's because you don't have very good access to mental health services. Maybe you're getting in trouble because inmate pay is too low or because the food is so bad that you need to do all sorts of things—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, sir. Could you wrap up your answer?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

All these things could be addressed, well beyond just the narrow view of solitary.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll go now to Mr. Lloyd.

Go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Dr. Zinger.

I met with advocates who deal with fetal alcohol syndrome, and they were very disappointed by the lack of support from the federal government and various levels of government. There's currently one program that's about $1.5 million a year. They noted, as you noted, that a large proportion of the prison population struggles with fetal alcohol syndrome.

Are there any programs in prisons to deal with fetal alcohol syndrome? What more could be done to reduce the number of people with fetal alcohol syndrome committing crimes and, thus, ending up in Canadian prisons?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I mentioned in my profile that studies conducted by the service show that anywhere between 10% and 23% meet the criteria. They either have symptoms or the diagnosis for FASD.

What I find outrageous is that despite the fact that the prevalence rate is so high, the service does not have a systematic way of assessing people, providing treatment and therapy to help those individuals, and providing the necessary support during incarceration, but also beyond. These are life issues that need support, and not enough is done.

I'll leave it at that.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you for that very good point.

I've always found in case studies in other countries that faith-based programming and indigenous spirituality programming can have a tremendous impact on changing people's lives and reducing recidivism and increasing better outcomes for everyone.

What is the state of this kind of faith-based programming in Canadian prisons? Is there room to expand that further?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Let me turn to Hazel to talk a bit about the services that are being provided to indigenous prisoners that are culturally relevant, with spiritual services with respect to elders and so on.

Go ahead, Hazel.

[Hazel Miron]

From my experience travelling around the institutions, faith-based and cultural perspectives are very crucial for the indigenous population, because a lot of the fellas now coming into prisons don't really know about their culture. Once they make that connection.... There's a better outcome score when they connect with their culture, meet with the elders and do more indigenous programming.

The programs that are successful are the ones coming from an authentic indigenous perspective. That's something CSC needs to be mindful of: continuing to bring those types of programs into the institutions.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Is there enough of this programming? Is this something that's lacking?

[Hazel Miron]

Currently, they have a one-size-fits-all program, which is not appropriate for other cultures. The cultural perspective, in my opinion, is not taken into consideration. The only way things are going to be effective is by having that perspective.

The way I find information out is that I actually go and talk to the inmates. I ask them, “How can we help you?” There are not enough people who do that—who go to see them, sit down with them and say, “How can we make prison life better for you?” At least, I do that with the people I visit.

They want to see more of us. They want to see more people. The staffing with indigenous issues.... There are not enough indigenous staff.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

What about programs other than indigenous ones, such as for Islamic, Christian or other groups?

[Hazel Miron]

It's probably the same.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

It's lacking. Okay.

[Hazel Miron]

They need that cultural perspective in order to reach people.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I agree.

I have limited time.

My final question is something we've been studying with Public Safety, over and over again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Actually, Dane, you have 12 seconds.