Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2022

[Myron Demkiw]

I don't think that would necessarily solve the health issue that people are struggling with in their addictions. We need to get to the root issues, as was mentioned by others today, as they relate to why people are addicted. Safe supply and wraparound services are all part of that conversation.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Of course. If the government's policy was that they wanted to buy hard drugs off the street as a means to reduce the proliferation of drugs on the street, would that be an effective tool to get hard drugs off the street?

[Myron Demkiw]

I do not believe it would be an effective tool.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Then why should it be effective for gun policy?

[Myron Demkiw]

I would not suggest it was effective for gun policy. The City of Toronto's experience is that guns that are being used in crime are not from law-abiding citizens. They're guns being smuggled from the United States. Those engaged in handling those firearms are not law-abiding, licensed gun owners; they are criminals with no firearms licence.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I will pivot to my next angle here. We're talking about where best taxpayer money can be spent on preventing crime. I believe diversion is key, especially getting youth out of the system. We've heard previous testimony at this committee that, basically, our prisons are being used as gang recruitment and training centres.

I was wondering what some recommendations are on ways that we can disrupt organized crime's work in the prisons.

[Myron Demkiw]

If that's directed to me, I would suggest that one of the key elements is, again, information and intelligence to understand the relationships that exist in the prisons, to disrupt the ability of gangs to exert their influence within the prison system. It's the ability to understand the intelligence that we need to disrupt the dynamics that play out in the prison population.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Is there a role for sentencing? When people go into prison, if they're in prison for a shorter period of time.... If people are coming in and out of the prisons with more frequency because sentences are being reduced, does that increase or decrease the ability of organized crime to effectively train and recruit people in prisons?

[Chief Dale McFee]

I can take that.

I used to be the deputy minister in charge of corrections and policing as well, so I think the best thing you can do right there is sort intake. As Deputy Chief Myron has said, get the right people in jail and hold the people responsible. The whole thing we've talked about.... Edmonton Police Services reallocated $38 million of their budget into community safety and well being, and partnered with social workers—we've hired social workers—and mental health workers and navigators to take out the vulnerable. The serious people, though, in relation to the trafficking, etc., actually need to go to jail and be rehabilitated in jail.

When you mix the two together, when you mix low-risk and high-risk, they all become high-risk, so sorting that intake is absolutely essential. Having a police service that's balanced on both approaches is absolutely critical, so you need investments—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I am going to ask a final question, so I can give some time back to committee.

We heard witness testimony indicate that if sentences are very short it's very difficult to rehabilitate people. Is that your experience, that longer sentences make rehabilitation more effective?

[Chief Dale McFee]

It depends on what the offence is, but there is absolutely more time in a rehabilitation setting. The other piece to that, though, as you mentioned earlier, is that you also have to get the people out of the system who shouldn't be in jail, and let that system actually do what it was designed to do. Right now, it's just a mishmash of everything in there.

It's a real opportunity, for sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Chief, and thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

Mr. Chiang, I'm going to ask you to be equally generous, even a little bit more generous.

Why don't we say that you'll have three minutes? The floor is yours now.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is directed to Chief McFee.

We know that positive relationships between police officers and the communities are important. Could you provide some information on gang prevention strategies and partnerships with local community organizations to link accused offenders and their families with various services in your city?

[Chief Dale McFee]

Yes, for sure. There are several. As I mentioned, we reallocated $38 million to work in the community safety and well-being space. We just did a commitment to action to build that relationship. We've had thousands of interactions with a lot of our marginalized communities.

If you think about it on a different side, when you take out somebody who's drug trafficking in a gang, there's always a family member associated who will fill that vacancy. The reality is, what you need to do is deal with the offender, as mentioned in the last one, but you also have to deal with the feeder system with partners in the community who can help stabilize that environment to ensure the feeder system doesn't....

If you just tackle this all at one end, all on the enforcement side or all on the prevention side, there's absolutely no chance that you can make an impact in this.

What we're fighting.... What Edmonton has done, by hitting this on four different areas and getting the community involved in relation to some capacity building, is starting to pay off. Those relationships, to your point, are critical, but the other piece to this, equally as critical, is to take out that serious, violent disruption that is often gang-associated, as Chief Bray and Deputy Chief Demkiw said, which is most often the case. It's balanced enforcement with community safety and well-being.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

My next question is for the deputy chief of the Toronto Police Service.

The Toronto Police Service conducted a gun buyback program. During this period, over 2,200 long guns and over 900 handguns were retrieved. According to a Global News article, officials said it was the police services' most successful program in Toronto's history. Could you speak about the success of this program and how other police services may benefit from a similar program, Deputy?

[Myron Demkiw]

I would say the success may be quantitative, in terms of the number of guns turned in. That may have made some tangible difference in collecting guns that otherwise were unsafely stored in attics or behind walls in the basement, but when it comes to the use of criminal handguns and the proliferation of handguns, that is not where the successes came from. It's not from that kind of buyback program.

The buyback program, frankly, was for the most part people turning in guns that were never going to be part of the criminal element to begin with.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Michaud, we're virtually out of time, but I want to give everybody at least time for one quick question. The floor is yours, Ms. Michaud, and you have 30 seconds.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Bray, what are the main obstacles to combatting illegal gun trafficking, as seen by you and the various police forces on the ground?

[Chief Evan Bray]

Very quickly, I would say we need to enhance the communication between organizations like CBSA, the Canadian National Firearms Tracing Centre and others that do this work. Also, we need to invest money in the more global issue of firearms in Canada.

Each police service does a good job of handling the crimes happening in its jurisdiction or community, but we need to also look at it globally and enhance good data so that we can make good decisions and try to restrict firearms and these crimes happening in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Evan.

I'm sorry, everybody. This is just the way it is. We could spend unlimited time, but we don't have it.

Mr. MacGregor, how efficient can you be with one minute?

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I can be very quick, Chair.

To the Toronto Police Service, we have seen in the news lately reports of people 3D printing components, of the use of ghost guns, etc. Can you talk a little more about what your intelligence services have found on that and what kind of trend we can expect in the years ahead?

[Myron Demkiw]

It is something we're certainly conscious of, but we're not seeing it in the volume we are with other issues. As that technology evolves, it's something for us to keep an eye on. It is something we're very much aware of.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, all, very much.

Mr. Shipley, can you ask a question in one minute?

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I'd already put my stuff away. I'm sorry. I thought we were ending it right there, Chair, but I could certainly do that.

As a quick question for Mr. Demkiw, acting deputy chief: You mentioned that 86% of gun crimes could be sourced. Why can the other guns not be sourced? What prevents that from happening?

[Myron Demkiw]

It's the obliteration of serial numbers, for example, where we're not able to recover the serial number—lack of markings, effectively. The criminal element takes opportunities to obliterate serial numbers from time to time, and we're not able to restore them.