Evidence of meeting #6 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was firearms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
I'm sorry, Dr. Langmann, but you're going to have to wrap up. Take 10 to 15 seconds to wrap up, please.
12:35 p.m.
Assistant Clinical Professor, Department of Medicine, McMaster University, As an Individual
They would go out to the gang leaders and inform them that there would be serious crackdowns if they were involved in violence. That led to a significant reduction in violent activity from these gangs.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you very much, Doctor.
Ms. Damoff, it's your slot. You have six minutes. The floor is yours.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you so much, Chair. Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today.
I just want to acknowledge that I am in Ottawa today, so I'm joining you from the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin people.
Mr. Tu’Inukuafe, we heard at our last meeting from Bear Clan Patrol and Mitch Bourbonniere from OPK. I've spoken to Liberty for Youth from Hamilton. They're going to be coming to committee. You're doing terrific work in Saskatoon, getting young people out of gangs or stopping them from getting into gangs.
What are your thoughts on bringing organizations like yours and others across the country together for a bit of a summit to share best practices and give the federal government some ideas on how we can effectively deal with young people getting involved with gangs or leaving them? Also, how we can effectively [Technical difficulty—Editor]?
12:35 p.m.
Co-Founder, STR8 UP: 10,000 Little Steps to Healing Inc.
Community agencies who work at the grassroots level would really appreciate that idea. Part of the reason I say that is that the families we work with, especially in the prairie provinces, do move back and forth between different provinces. There are many opportunities where I would work with the family and if they decide to move to Winnipeg, I would want to connect that family to another agency—you mentioned Mitch—that the family could become involved with. Also, because we have built relationships with these families, when we send that referral families are more likely to engage with that other community agency when they move to that province.
That's an idea that I think would really benefit the type of work we do. I really hope we do it.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you so much.
I've been to your lovely town. I quite like Saskatoon.
For both you and Dr. Henry, we know there's a connection between.... We're seeing that young people getting involved in street life are looking for a sense of community. We also know that mandatory minimum sentences have seen people sent to prison who probably would be better dealt with in addiction treatment or other programs.
I'm just wondering if you could speak a little about the connection between sending young people to an institution and the impact that has on their involvement in crime and gangs.
12:35 p.m.
Co-Founder, STR8 UP: 10,000 Little Steps to Healing Inc.
I'll let Dr. Henry start.
12:35 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Indigenous Studies, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
We have to understand that prison really isn't a place for people to go to for addiction issues. It's just not a conduit in the way it's set up; the supports are not set up in that way. We need to understand that if individuals are heading there for those issues, we have to either reframe the way in which we see prisons, how we're working within prisons, and the programming within prisons, or find alternative measures to keep people out of prison.
This is something we're doing in northern Saskatchewan in a lot of communities. There are diversion programs, youth circles, and so forth, where youth who are involved in petty crime, if you will, are being diverted out of those systems and moving out because it's those networks that they build within the system that allow them to become further entrenched in it.
When we look at this I also want to bring in the idea that it's not just prisons; it's also looking at the child welfare system and CFS as well. When we look at individuals engaged in street gangs, especially with indigenous people, we see very high rates of individuals who have been multiply placed within child welfare systems. A lot of individuals say that was their first taste of understanding institutionalization. That's where they started building their relationships, going through there with like-minded individuals.
I'll leave it at that for now, due to the time frame.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I'm going to be able to give you only about 30 seconds, Mr. Tu'Inukuafe.
12:40 p.m.
Co-Founder, STR8 UP: 10,000 Little Steps to Healing Inc.
Yes.
I would like to build on what Dr. Henry mentioned.
One of the requirements we have in STR8 UP is that people who want to join write an autobiography. I've read a variety of these autobiographies, and one young person's autobiography that I read said the following: “When I was 8 and 9 years old, running the streets of Saskatoon, stabbing and shooting people, I wanted others to feel the pain that I was feeling inside.”
When a young person is in jail, as Dr. Henry mentioned, the issue of the emotional challenges they have is not being dealt with, because this young person is locked up 23.5 hours a day, seven days a week. Without any programming they become even more entrenched, because they're able to build networks.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Dr. Langmann, can you clarify something for me?
Your research ended in 2016, so you did not actually look at the impact of Bill C-71, which included extended background checks and forfeiture of firearms to the crown under a prohibition order. Can you confirm that your legislation ended prior to the introduction of Bill C-71?
February 8th, 2022 / 12:40 p.m.
Assistant Clinical Professor, Department of Medicine, McMaster University, As an Individual
BillC-71, in terms of [Technical Difficulty—Editor] in 2016, this recent study.... There's not enough data to look at any effects from any newer legislation.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you very much.
I would now invite Ms. Michaud to use her six minutes.
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank the witnesses for being here.
It is extremely interesting to have people from all walks of life here. We have heard from government officials, police chiefs, and now we have you, who are looking at the issues in much more detail. It shows that we can act on several fronts at once.
With regard to the illegal trafficking of firearms, we think that we need to invest more at the border, for example. We need the different police forces, the different organizations and the Canada Border Services Agency to work better together and perhaps invest more, provide more resources, but also invest in prevention. I think that's your area of expertise.
I will start with you, Mr. Langmann. Your research has shown that homicides are linked to social factors. I would like you to tell us a little more about this. In light of your research and your studies, what should be the role of the government, other than the one I mentioned at the beginning? I think it can do many things at once. In terms of prevention, social or human factors, how do you think government can act?
12:40 p.m.
Assistant Clinical Professor, Department of Medicine, McMaster University, As an Individual
I'd like to echo what Dr. Henry and Mr. Tu'Inukuafe said. We are seeing a lot of people in the emergency department. Methamphetamine addiction has become a significant issue, as well as fentanyl, and street trade drives a lot of this crime. We're seeing people released from prison into the community again with no psychiatric treatment. They're often not competent and able to take care of themselves, and they quickly revert back to criminal activity as well as drugs.
What I saw in the research, in particular with handguns, is that the unemployment rate and the poverty indexes were all associated with handgun homicide. This is not surprising. It's the weapon of choice of gang members; it's easy to conceal. In most crimes, when the police find firearms afterwards, it is handguns that are being used.
If we want to target some of these issues, I would suggest diverting youth at an early age, when we know they are starting to run into problems with the criminal justice system, as well as when we find mothers who are reaching out for help, either in the emergency department or in the community. When they have no support for their children, when the children have no psychiatric support, it takes sometimes months for a referral from me to a psychiatrist for these patients to be seen.
I would strongly recommend that you divert money towards psychiatric care as well as some of these anti-gang initiatives. I would suggest you speak with the directors of Wraparound Milwaukee for further information as to how to successfully set up these anti-gang and youth programs in Canada.
Once some of these people are entrenched and become older, they are no longer receptive to a lot of these programs, so I would suggest we target an early age.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you.
I would like to hear the opinion of the STR8‑UP representative on what Mr. Langmann just said.
Mr. Tu'Inukuafe, do you agree with what he has just said? If so, can you give us examples of effective prevention programmes? Can you tell us about the ones that already exist, the ones that should be emphasized more, or the ones that would need more investment?
12:45 p.m.
Co-Founder, STR8 UP: 10,000 Little Steps to Healing Inc.
What I'd like to add is to kind of show you in practical terms. Because we work with individuals involved in both the provincial and federal systems, it's not uncommon that I would get a random phone call from someone saying, “Hey, Stan, I'm at the airport. Can you pick me up?” They've just been released from doing federal three to five years; they get a plane ticket and fly to Saskatoon, and no one is there to pick them up. I pick them up and take them to a homeless shelter. The question becomes: Could something have intervened for better case planning in that process? That's one piece.
Another topic that I feel is not discussed often enough is that, if I was to give a general idea—this is very general—of the individuals we work with, they probably stopped going to school at grade 9 or 10. That's very general. I don't have statistics, just my interactions with them.
The question becomes how schools can play a better role in keeping these young people in the school system instead of kicking them out. As everyone knows, once they leave school, their opportunities become more limited.
This program that I mentioned at STR8 UP is unique. We started in Saskatchewan. As I mentioned, we've been there for 20 years, but we're very underfunded. The provincial gang violence reduction strategy was funded just two years ago, but prior to that, for 18 years, we did volunteer work. Funding programs that already exist in this province would be a start.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you very much. The timing was absolutely perfect.
Mr. MacGregor, the floor goes to you. You have a six-minute slot to proceed, please.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Maybe I'll start with Dr. Henry and Mr. Tu'lnukuafe. You could each take a turn at answering this.
Dr. Henry, in your opening statement you talked about how the police really need to be partners in effectively addressing this. As you may be aware, in the previous Parliament, this committee released a pretty comprehensive report on systemic racism in policing in Canada. The many recommendations included having the Government of Canada provide increased funding for restorative justice programs, to make sure they're effective and widely available. It recommended that the RCMP work with indigenous communities to make sure we had advisory committees in each of their communities and also that we prioritize the recruitment of indigenous people and women into indigenous police services.
On the theme of some of those general recommendations, do you have any other thoughts that you would add on how we rebuild a lot of the trust between indigenous communities and policing services? Do you have anything more to add that this committee needs to include in its recommendations?
12:45 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Indigenous Studies, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
First, I think it's a start. One thing we see within the research is that hiring more indigenous police officers without changing the culture of policing itself does not actually make a bit of difference, because they have to frame within that culture.
Second, when we start looking at these programs that everybody has been talking about a bit here—Milwaukee and everything else—I think we have to be very cautious when we're saying we have to get programs for these youth. If we create programs for the youth, but we don't actually create spaces for the youth to feel like they belong in our communities, no program is going to work. No matter how much we put in there, if the community itself is not engaged in anti-racism and trying to deconstruct or decolonize individual spaces, and if individuals who are living in racialized poverty do not have opportunities for jobs because business owners don't trust indigenous people or the Black body, nothing is going to work. They have to live in a capitalist society, so where do they go to get their money? They have to go to the streets.
When we're talking about programs and we're looking at prevention, education and all these things are important, but if there are no opportunities for individuals to see a livelihood for themselves, why would they go that way? We have to look at the street as a space where individuals can actually go to survive. Within this sort of space, how do they provide for one another?
When we look at the development of all of this, one way it has to happen, which I see as positive in working with gang members and communities, is the reshaping of the relationship of the police within the community. The police don't come in as the ones who know what to do, but rather ask how they can help, using their job and resources. It's that reshaping of it.
For too long, police have taken the main lead in all of this, which has fragmented the relationships between the community and policing. There's a long history, especially within indigenous spaces, of the police being used to hypersurveil and hyperincarcerate indigenous bodies. If we look at the statistics across Canada, the indigenous body is hyperincarcerated. It's not mass incarceration; it's hyperincarceration on racialized bodies, especially in the Prairies.
I'll just leave it at that for now.
12:50 p.m.
Co-Founder, STR8 UP: 10,000 Little Steps to Healing Inc.
The only other thing I would add is that in the provincial gang strategy report, especially in indigenous communities, one thing they overwhelmingly mentioned is that a lot of the time, RCMP officers will come to their communities and they're generally there for two to three years. Because they're kind of viewed as experts on gangs, they start the program, but when those RCMP officers leave, the program is dismantled.
More of a focus, as Dr. Henry mentioned, on how the community takes the lead.... That's why it's important for the community to take the lead and for the RCMP officers to come in as partners to that. I'd just add that piece.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
You both have illustrated quite adeptly just how a study on guns, gun trafficking and gangs really has just so many threads and cannot be looked at in a silo. It really touches on so many different areas.
Dr. Henry, you mentioned the Correctional Service of Canada and its current inadequacy at providing programs for the safe reintegration and transition of people who have served their sentence into the community.
Are there specific recommendations for the Correctional Service of Canada that you would like to see in our report and that touch on what our study is looking at—gun trafficking, gang recruitment and so on?
12:50 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Indigenous Studies, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
If we're actually going to look at.... I just see all of this as reducing violence, and how we reduce this hyperviolence. It's all connected to hypermasculinity. When we look at programs, we need to re-engage with this idea of what it means to be masculine within society. It doesn't mean emasculating individuals, but how do we engage with this toxic hypermasculinity that is favoured within street and prison spaces? It's that sort of connection that's there.
If we're going to look at programming, Dr. Langmann talked about CBT. CBT is good at reframing individual thinking, but we need to look at reframing and ask what it actually means to reframe the use of [Technical difficulty—Editor] behaviours. This means that women also engage in this sort of behaviour too, because it's not just a male thing.
This behaviour that we're looking at can be identified as hypermasculinity, and the way in which it's brought out within street spaces is what needs to be addressed. That's what needs to be in programming, not just within jails within the CSC. That's what needs to be started to be addressed at a very young age as well. What are those mentorships in the mentoring programs, and what does it mean to...? How do we move individuals in how to deal with issues related to stress?
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
I'm sorry, but we're gong to have wrap it up.
Colleagues, we're moving into the second round.
My quick calculation is this. We have six minutes left, and it would be a 25-minute round. If I cut everybody in half, we would go only a few minutes over the appointed hour. Does that sound like a reasonable way to proceed? Do I have agreement to do that? Okay.
Mr. Van Popta, you have two and a half minutes. The floor is yours.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
Thank you to our witnesses for being with us here today and informing us on these very important topics.
I'm going to start with the STR8 UP organization.
Stan, thank you for your comprehensive evidence that you gave to us, and for the work that you and your organization do for the community.
My question to you is about helping young people get out of gangs. What are some of the challenges they face and you face as you help them to transition out of gangs?