Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning everybody, from a very balmy Winnipeg. Everybody around here is in a good mood this morning.

Welcome to meeting number six of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website, and the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officers.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. I would remind you that all comments by members should be addressed through the chair.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk will advise the chair on whose hands are up to the best of his ability. We will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

First, I would like to inform [Technical difficulty—Editor] of the motion last Thursday, February 3, 2022. After consulting with all parties in this committee, I have instructed the clerk to extend an invitation to representatives of GoFundMe and FINTRAC to appear before this committee this Thursday from 1:00 p.m. to 2:00 p.m. Further information will be provided as it becomes available.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the House of Commons on Tuesday, December 7, 2021, and the motion adopted on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, the committee is resuming its study of gun control, illegal arms trafficking and the increase in gun crimes committed by members of street gangs.

With us today by video conference, from the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, we have Chief Evan Bray, [Technical difficulty—Editor] and from the Toronto Police Service, we have Myron Demkiw, deputy chief, and Lauren Pogue, staff superintendent.

Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions. Witnesses may split their allotted time for opening remarks with other witnesses, if they so desire.

Welcome to all of you.

I now invite Chief Evan [Technical difficulty—Editor] five minutes.

Chief, the floor is yours.

[Chief Evan Bray, Chief of Police, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of this distinguished committee.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today on behalf of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. I co-chair a CACP special purpose committee on firearms that's been tasked to study growing concerns related to gun violence in Canada from a public safety perspective.

The debate on firearms, as we know, is a very polarizing one that can be highly divisive and emotionally charged on all sides of the issue. The CACP believes in balancing the privileges of individual Canadians with the broader rights of society. As police leaders, we place a priority on public safety and the protection of the most vulnerable among us. The committee is comprised of numerous experts from across Canada, working together to understand the complexities of firearm crime in our country. The CACP is working closely with organizations like Public Safety Canada, Canada Border Services Agency, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the Canadian Firearms Program.

Combining our expertise in guns and gangs, investigative firearms tracing, statistics and other things opens the door to enhanced collaboration and information sharing. The committee identified four key themes that will help guide our work over the next couple of years: strategic approaches, legislative initiatives, education and prevention, and data collection and information sharing. Over the past two years we've provided feedback on firearm-related legislation, such as bills C-71 and C-21, to improve what is a strict and responsible form of gun ownership in Canada.

While we should always strive for continuous improvement with legislation, we also need to find ways of reducing gun violence in our communities using the best evidence-based practices. How crime guns make their way into our communities, the types of guns being used for criminal purposes, the perpetrators using guns to commit crimes, and other areas related to firearms can differ greatly across Canada. To ascertain how, when, why and where firearms are being used to commit crimes in Canada, we need good data. To this end, the special purpose committee on firearms worked with the Canadian Centre for Justice and Community Safety Statistics to ensure that good firearms data was being collected consistently across Canada. For example, in 2021, we set new standard definitions for firearms terminology related to shootings and crime guns. We also amended the Uniform Crime Reporting Survey to include new firearm codes that distinguish between seized, stolen and recovered firearms. The first results will be expected in the fall of this year.

Two large areas requiring further work are the origin of crime guns and firearm tracing in Canada. With our partners, we're conducting a study on the origins of crime guns to monitor trends and examine the effectiveness of policies and interventions. In parallel, we are also working to increase the uptake in capacity to complete firearm tracing. We want to understand the benefits and challenges with respect to the existing process in Canada to better inform operational steps and address legislative gaps related to gun crime. The issue is not law-abiding Canadians who want to own firearms. The issue really is people who are involved in criminal activity who are obtaining firearms through illegal means, such as cross-border trafficking, theft from legal gun owners and straw purchases. The absence of purchase records effectively stymies the ability of police to trace non-restricted firearms that have been used in a crime. Firearm tracing can assist in identifying the suspect in a crime and the criminal sourcing of that gun and any trafficking networks.

The disturbing trend in gun violence is largely related to gangs, lower-level street gangs and more sophisticated organized crime groups, so to stop it requires a whole-of-society approach. It starts with education and prevention early on to address the root causes that lead people to the gang lifestyle in the first place. It's about exit strategies for people in those lifestyles and leading them towards a healthier path. Finally, it's about enforcement and ensuring that we're going after the criminal elements who are perpetrating violence in our communities. We want to use proper investigative techniques, have them in place and have appropriate consequences for those who commit acts of violence.

In conclusion, we respect the debate that is occurring and understand the various positions on this issue. It's not our goal to punish law-abiding citizens for the actions of criminals. Our goal simply is to ensure the safety and security of all Canadians.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Chief.

Chief Dale McFee, I now invite you to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

[Chief Dale McFee, Chief of Police, Edmonton Police Service]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would certainly agree with what Chief Bray said about the problem not being our law-abiding citizens in the disturbing trends on gangs and the data.

Here are just a few opening remarks to give you some of the statistics we're seeing, from both the Edmonton Police Service and the province. Last year we had 41 homicides. Fourteen of those homicides involved a firearm and one involved both a firearm and an edged weapon. The racial backgrounds of the 20 people responsible for these homicides were eight white, seven indigenous and five Black, so it's across the diversity of our community. Seventeen of the accused had a criminal record. In seven of the homicides, the victim and the suspect were not known to each other. In 21 of the homicides, the victim and the suspect did know each other. Twelve of the homicides were gang-related and 19 were not. In nine of the homicides that are currently under investigation, gang involvement is still unknown. Seven homicides, for sure, were related to the drug trade, which the statistics will show. For 12 of the homicides it's still not known if there was drug usage. One of the 41 homicides was domestic violence, and four were family-related violence.

In relation to the number of shootings that Edmonton had, in 2021 we had 150 shootings. In 2020 we had 158. We were down a bit last year. This year to date we've had 10.

We talk about firearms seized, which is also something we pay close attention to. In 2017 we had 1,016, and this past year we had 16,033 guns seized. You can certainly see a trend upwards in relation to that area.

In the province of Alberta, which we track, obviously, as all police services do, through our criminal intelligence service, 503 shooting events were reported, which is down 5%. The most common level of injury with shooting events was bodily injury in 35% of them, and 73% of these shooting events were believed to be targeted attacks.

In Alberta, 546 firearms were stolen and there were 114 break and enters. Obviously, a lot of these were being acquired through break and enters.

The other thing I will just highlight is that over the last year in Alberta we had 53 trafficking of firearms investigations, which was up 20%. Handguns were found to be trafficked most often, with 110 of those, followed by rifles and shotguns. There were 63 offenders identified as being either buyers or sellers of [Technical difficulty—Editor]. Seventeen potential straw purchases were identified as well.

One last thing is that we also did some research in relation to the drug patterns in the Edmonton area through our research team. We've seen a real shift. In 2007 the main drug was cocaine. You saw very little meth, opioids or heroin. It remained the trend until 2014. By far the drug we most often recognize now is meth, which as you all know is associated with some significant violence as well as being significantly attractive to our gangs. Obviously with that we've seen a real increase of opioids and increased use of heroin. Just for information's sake, it seems like cocaine is no longer very prominent in our community.

Although we continue to research this, those things are obviously closely related to some of the trends we're seeing. This shows some distinct changes from when the legalization of marijuana came into effect and those drug patterns changed. Not that it was the indicator; it just goes to show that the stronger drugs are certainly more involved than they ever were.

We obviously have lots of things to talk about in relation to things that also could be done, but I'll leave that for the questions.

I'll leave that as my opening comments. Again, thank you very much for having us all here today to discuss this very important topic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Chief McFee.

I now turn to [Technical difficulty—Editor].

Sir, you now have the floor for up to five minutes. It's all yours.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Myron Demkiw, Deputy Chief, Toronto Police Service]

Good morning, and thank you, Chair and committee members, for this opportunity to address you today.

I'll spend a few minutes speaking about the proliferation of illegal firearms—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Hello. Is there a point of order? I'm hearing some voices.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair, I was the one who raised the point of order.

When you spoke, the sound was intermittent, which makes it difficult for the interpreters to do their job. The sound also cut out as Mr. McFee made his opening remarks. So there is no interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Ms. Michaud is reporting a problem with the translation. It is breaking up.

Clerk, could you please look into that and report back to us right away?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Wassim Bouanani]

Yes, sir.

[The Clerk]

Mr. Chair, it looks like there are some issues with the Zoom platform in the building. We are looking into it. We can proceed, if you wish. If there's a problem, we can stop again and check with our technicians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

We'll try it. If there's a translation issue, then we'll have to suspend until it's sorted out. Let's hope that it has already been sorted out.

I will turn back to you, Deputy Chief Demkiw. Let's try again. You're starting from the top of the clock. Let's see how it goes.

[Myron Demkiw]

Good morning, and thank you, Chair and committee members, for the opportunity to address you here today.

I'll spend a few minutes speaking about the proliferation of illegal firearms and, in particular, illegal handguns and the violence perpetrated in Toronto using these firearms. I'll also touch on recent trends and highlight a number of recently implemented strategies to enhance our prevention, intervention and enforcement efforts.

Shootings and homicides continue to be a concern in Toronto. Just last year, we saw a 20% increase in the number of homicides, and of the 85 murders committed in 2021, 46 were shooting homicides. The traumatic impact of gun violence on communities is unacceptable and the number of firearms-related incidents far too high, and we are seeing emerging trends that are of concern.

There were 408 shootings in our city last year, resulting in 209 victims. In 2021, 86% of crime handguns that could be sourced were from the United States. The percentage of criminal handguns that are sourced in the United States has continued to rise since 2019.

There is increasing concern over the involvement of younger persons in shootings and the risk that our youth face from gun violence in Toronto. In 2021, the average age of persons involved in shootings, either as an accused or suspect, or as a person of interest, dropped from 25 years of age to 20 years of age. The number of shell casings seized at shootings has risen significantly in 2021. We have seized 2,405 shell casings at crime scenes, representing a 48% increase over the previous year.

The Toronto Police Service has undertaken a number of initiatives to respond in a more effective and holistic way to gun and gang activity. Our approach is rooted in our legal obligation to deliver community-centred policing, conduct investigations and enforcement and, importantly, prevent offences and assist victims.

We understand the social costs and unintended consequences that enforcement tactics can have on residents, families and communities. As a result, the Toronto police have focused on strategic enforcement, which is squarely aimed at the most impactful and violent offenders.

Community members and organizations have repeatedly called for greater coordination between police, community supports, city resources and all levels of government. Additionally, it has been recognized that getting upstream of the need for enforcement must be a continued priority of any sustainable policing model.

The Toronto Police Service has partnered with key city representatives and developed an executive leadership table to facilitate greater public safety collaboration. Additionally, we've introduced a strategic framework in regard to gun and gang activity to provide a coordinated, multisectoral approach in partnership with our communities and guided by the City of Toronto community safety and well-being plan, known as “SafeTO”.

Introduced in 2021, SafeTO is a city-led collaborative plan that includes the development of a comprehensive multi-sector gun violence reduction plan, which is to address the complex challenges posed by gun and gang activity. The goal is to shift from reliance on a reactive and siloed response towards a model of integrated prevention and intervention that tackles upstream root causes.

The Toronto Police Service has committed to additional prevention and intervention initiatives with the creation of our integrated gang prevention task force, designed to offer those wishing to escape the gang lifestyle the proper resources, guidance and mentorship to do so.

In conclusion, gun violence and gang activity continue to be the most significant public safety concern of people in Toronto. This criminal behaviour has a direct impact on victims, their families and our neighbourhoods as a whole.

Community safety is a shared responsibility that requires coordination and collaboration between all levels of government, the police, communities and social services to address the complex root causes that lead individuals to use a criminal firearm in the first place. There's a need to not only stop the proliferation of illegal guns from the United States, but also address underlying causes of violence resulting in trauma in our neighbourhoods.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

I now would like to open the floor for questions.

At the top of the first round, I would call on Ms. Dancho.

Ms. Dancho, you have six minutes for your questioning slot. The floor is yours.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I would like to thank all the chiefs of police and deputy chiefs of police for coming before committee today to discuss this critical issue impacting your cities and the residents of Canada. I thank you first and foremost for your diligence and your efforts, and for the efforts of your officers in putting their lives on the line to keep our communities safe.

I have a number of questions for all of you. I will start with Deputy Chief Demkiw.

I was very impressed with your remarks in terms of your outreach to the community and looking at a community level. It sounds to me like you were really talking about youth diversion as a primary tactic to combat gun and gang violence. Could you comment a bit further on the resources the Toronto police and other police forces need to really go after youth when they're...?

What we're hearing at committee is that when you get a youth who's doing petty crime, maybe stealing a car or breaking and entering, they're as young as eight or nine or 10 years old when they're starting to do that. They kind of get on that path of gang violence. Can you comment on that? What resources are needed to invest in more youth diversion programs?

[Myron Demkiw]

Thank you very much for the opportunity to discuss this a little further.

We are fortunate to have partnered with our city subject matter experts, who are leading SafeTO, our community safety and well-being plan. This 10-year plan is really driving a change in thinking. It's a transformative change in how we approach these issues. It really is a collaborative process. We're bringing the key areas of social service, health care, justice and police business all together in a collaborative way. We are just in the early stages of developing what will be a comprehensive multi-sector gun violence reduction plan under SafeTO. It's literally at council now, getting the budget approvals necessary to make that happen.

In our learnings on developing SafeTO, particularly in the police involvement in some of the research and activities we have done along the way, I think you have really spoken to the key issue: We have to find a way to get to the youth sooner and in a way that's relevant to their specific needs. We know from our gang prevention work, in our town hall meetings and our engagement, that the community has spoken very clearly. There are some major strategies that they believe would help.

I can provide the top five strategies from the feedback we got. They include opportunities for mentoring, programs in recreation, job provision and job training. Certainly, there has been feedback on police being involved to provide a safe environment in communities. Tutoring is something that young people and communities have identified as being particularly necessary to help stop the path and the cycle.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you. I have only a few minutes left, but I appreciate the five-pronged approach.

You mentioned that this 10-year plan is to really work with the community, listen to their needs and collaborate across various jurisdictions—social health, police and others. Can you give us an estimate of how much that's going to cost? What is the ask to city council?

[Myron Demkiw]

The ask to city council on that is actually coming from city staff. Unfortunately, I don't have the specifics in front of me.

I can tell you that there is a need for sustained investment where we support the integration of effort between social services, city agencies, and police and justice practitioners.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Okay, so you would agree that this would be the best investment of resources. Is there anywhere else that you would invest resources? Would it be more police services, more social services...? We have a few minutes left. Can you perhaps outline a few areas that you think would best prevent gun violence now and in the long term? Where would you put taxpayer dollars?

[Myron Demkiw]

To start, as we have just touched on, it would be efforts to get at the front end or upstream of what leads young people to pick up a firearm in the first place. That we've covered. As it relates to some policing efforts, I think there certainly is a need, as we've touched on, for greater tracing, greater analysis and greater integration of data as it relates to what that teaches us, so that we can deal with the flow of firearms onto our streets from a law enforcement perspective. Then there is the provision of support for victims and those impacted after the fact in the recovery and sustainable recovery in our communities.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I appreciate that very much. I really appreciate how much thought and effort all police associations across Canada.... Winnipeg is focusing on a very community-based approach as well that is having great results.

The reason I ask about the dollar value is this. We're seeing the federal government now looking to do the gun buyback program, so to speak, which will cost upwards of a billion dollars. Some say it will be three billion. They are proposing a provincial handgun ban, and a billion dollars to go along with that. I'm not hearing a single police association across the country saying that this is the best use of taxpayer dollars. They are outlining things that you're outlining as well.

Again, can you comment, in these last 30 seconds, on more where you think the best use of taxpayer dollars should be going?

[Myron Demkiw]

I'll address what you just addressed around where the guns that are harming our communities are coming from. They're not domestically sourced. They are internationally sourced. Our problem in Toronto is handguns from the United States.

Investing in what you described is certainly not going to deal with the crime problem we're facing in Toronto as it relates to criminal handguns and the use of criminal handguns. We believe an investment upstream is a very valuable focus of resources.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Now, I would like to invite Mr. McKinnon to take six minutes to pose his questions.

The floor is yours, Mr. McKinnon.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here. We appreciate your testimony. It's most helpful.

You've offered a great deal of data. It's sort of like drinking from a firehose here.

Certainly some of our focus in this study is on gun crimes committed by members of street gangs, organized crime and so forth. It seems to me, from the testimony, that this is where the preponderance of the violence is coming from. I'd like to verify that. What proportion of gun-related violence arrises from domestic situations, or people who were not previously involved in a criminal lifestyle but who suddenly take it upon themselves to make an ideological or religious attack on some group?

Perhaps we can start with the Toronto Police Service.

Could you give us some insight on that?