Public Safety Committee on June 6th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 70 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. We will start by acknowledging that we are meeting on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin people.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Therefore, members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, November 25, 2022, the committee continues its consideration of Bill C-20, an act establishing the public complaints and review commission and amending certain acts and statutory instruments.

I should note that we expect to have our last witness meeting on June 13. I would encourage all members to provide any amendments that are going to be proposed by 6 p.m. on June 13. That will give the legislative clerk time to put them in a package and get them sorted out so that we can continue with clause-by-clause the following week. On that Friday, we're hoping to have the minister for main estimates.

This week, we will do two witness meetings, and the following week we will have our last witness meeting. Then the Friday after that will be estimates with the minister, hopefully. The Tuesday after that, we hope to start on clause-by-clause. We've asked for extra time on that day for clause-by-clause just in case we need it. We want to get through clause-by-clause before we rise, if it's possible, and that is going to depend on the amendments people want to propose.

That is the plan. If you can get your amendments in by 6 p.m. on June 13, that would be most helpful to the legislative clerk.

Today—

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

What I want to say is related to what you just said, Mr. Chair.

Personally, I think it's reasonable to hear the last witnesses on June 13 and to begin clause-by-clause consideration on June 20, because that gives us a week to prepare our amendments. However, if we have to send them to the clerk on June 13, I feel that would be rushing us a little. If witnesses propose amendments, for example, that leaves the clerk very little time to prepare them.

I don't know if it's possible, but I would like us to be able to send amendments to the clerk during the week of June 13, not necessarily on June 13 or 14.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

As the chair, I can't mandate that it must be so. I'm encouraging people to have them in by that date if possible. That will give the legislative clerk time to put them in the proper order and so forth. It's always in order for members to bring amendments on the floor during clause-by-clause as well.

The plan is to try our best to get whatever amendments we can in by June 13. If there are more that need to be done after that, we will accommodate them as best we can.

Okay, today we have two panels of witnesses.

With us today in person, we have, from Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, Mr. Natan Obed, president, and Chris Stewart, assistant director. With us today by video conference, we have Grand Chief Abram Benedict of the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne.

Welcome to you all. You have up to five minutes to make your opening statements, and we will start Mr. Obed.

Please go ahead for five minutes.

[Natan Obed, President, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami]

Nakurmiik, Mr. Chair.

It's good to see everyone here in this committee.

As I have been introduced, I'm Natan Obed, president of Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, the representational organization for Canada's 70,000 Inuit. In our homeland, Inuit Nunangat, there are 51 communities. There are roughly 70,000 Inuit in Canada, the majority of whom live in those 51 communities. They're from northern Labrador, northern Quebec, Nunavut and the Northwest Territories. Seventy per cent of our communities—all except those in northern Quebec in the Nunavik region—are serviced by the RCMP, so this piece of legislation has the possibility of bringing forward some very positive transformative change to our relationship with the RCMP.

Our communities are grappling with severe problems of disproportionate police violence, which is more than just isolated incidents and is part of a much broader systemic problem closely tied to social inequity. The challenges faced by our people are not just in relation to the point-in-time policing challenges we face, but also in relation to accessing justice and also accessing the socio-economic quality of life that most other Canadians enjoy in areas such as housing, access to health care, education, employment and food security.

The interconnected nature of these issues exacerbates police violence in our communities. Also, the challenges in how the police force itself is constructed play a role in the scenarios we face today.

The evidence that we have paints a distressing picture of police-related deaths within our communities. We don't actually have aggregated data to bring you the very clear picture we would like to bring forward about how much more at risk of dying at the hands of the RCMP people in our communities are than perhaps Canadians are of dying at the hands of police forces in the rest of Canada. This grim reality is starkly evident in Nunavut, where we know that police-related deaths, especially in the last 10 years or so, are much higher than they are in Ontario, the Yukon and the Northwest Territories.

These issues are at the heart of why this particular piece of legislation could be so transformative. We need essential data and an essential understanding of how police systems are serving our communities. We need oversight mechanisms to be able to hold police accountable, but also to be able to inform this body of how to improve policing and broader outcomes for our communities.

I come back to examples of the policing force. Right now, say for Nunavut—again, we don't have data for all regions and sometimes we don't have up-to-date data, 2023 data—of the 146 RCMP officers in Nunavut, one of our four regions, only 14 are Inuit. In the administrative positions it is a bit higher. There are 14 Inuit out of 32 positions within the jurisdiction of Nunavut.

You can see that we have a challenge with the type of policing provided to us in that many of those providing services are itinerant by design. Many of those members, even if they have served across Inuit Nunangat only, are in a certain community for a certain point in time. These communities are also chronically under-resourced so that you have just one or two police officers who are active within a community, so there isn't a lot of time to build a connection to communities. There is time to undertake only the bare bones of policing duties.

I talked in December 2020 to this very committee about many of these issues, especially in relation to systemic racism within policing. I think a lot of that conversation is still relevant today when we ae discussing Bill C-20.

The legislation is designed to change the existing legislation for police oversight, but it falls short when considering mandatory Inuit representation within the commission on matters relating to the Inuit. While the bill contains some provisions allowing for the temporary involvement of technical experts to assist the commission, we need to have a more distinctions-based and specific focus on the ability for Inuit to participate within the mechanisms that are, ultimately, going to influence the way in which the Inuit are serviced across Inuit Nunangat.

This also links to the issue of murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. This particular piece of legislation should also link into action 6.12. This action demands an amendment to the legislation to ensure the commission is truly a distinctions-based body that is inclusive of first nations, Inuit and Métis representation. This call for a broader and more inclusive representation aligns directly with call for justice 5.7 of the MMIWG final report—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm sorry. You're at six minutes. Are you able to wrap it up?

[Natan Obed]

Yes.

Using the distinctions-based lens in the way we work on these things together is so essential for Inuit to be considered at all within the implementation of this particular piece of legislation.

Nakurmiik. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll go now to Grand Chief Abram Benedict, please.

Go ahead, sir, for five minutes.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict, Grand Chief, Mohawk Council of Akwesasne]

Shé:kon. Good afternoon, honourable Chair, honourable vice-chairs and members of the committee. I bring greetings on behalf of the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne and our community of Akwesasne. Thank you for the invitation to address the committee today.

Today I will be presenting to the committee some information about my community of Akwesasne and our border realities, and I'll provide some insight into our position on Bill C-20.

Akwesasne is a land of borders. The international line between Canada and the United States runs directly through our community so that half of our community is in Canada, in the provinces of Quebec and Ontario, and the other half is in the United States, in the state of New York.

The Mohawk Council of Akwesasne is the governing body for the Canadian territory of Akwesasne. We represent approximately 13,200 members. Our members live on both sides of the international border in the various districts of Akwesasne in Ontario, Quebec and New York.

If a member wants to travel from one district to another by land, we must cross the international border. Mohawks who are going to work or school, attending church, shopping, or travelling for recreational, social and cultural purposes must cross the international border and present themselves at either Canadian customs or American customs and provide adequate identification.

Prior to COVID-19, Cornwall was Canada’s 10th-busiest port of entry, with approximately two million vehicles crossing annually. About 70% of these crossings are Mohawks travelling from one district of Akwesasne to another, which equates to about 1.4 million trips through Canadian customs by Mohawks travelling in Akwesasne, or more than 100 trips per member each year. Today, post-COVID, these numbers are almost back to the same level.

The Cornwall port of entry is the only land crossing that processes international and domestic traffic. In the case of Cornwall, domestic traffic comes from Cornwall Island. This means they process traffic that has never left Canada. The port of entry was relocated to the city of Cornwall in 2009, following a dispute between the community and CBSA. Our community has a long history with CBSA. It has not always been a productive relationship, but we have come a long way since 2009.

Given the unique location and arrangements of the Cornwall port of entry, the likelihood of a negative interaction and complaint from a member of Akwesasne is much greater than at any other port of entry in Canada. I want to make it very clear that the Cornwall port of entry is like no other port of entry. This port of entry is the 10th-busiest in Canada, but 70% of the people who use that crossing are the same people all day, every day. No other port of entry in Canada has these statistics. There are many travellers who cross the border daily, but none to this level.

Across the international border, many communities exist as border neighbours. They exist on each side of the border, and they are not integrated into the border like Akwesasne is. Recently, a young Akwesasronon posted to social media a handwritten sign that said he was 16 years old and that he has had to report to CBSA 8,760 times for leaving the island. This message resonates with me not only as a leader but also as a resident of Cornwall Island, and it is a very accurate representation of the reality that the people of Akwesasne have to face.

The Mohawk Council of Akwesasne supports Bill C-20. We have supported this initiative since its inception in 2019 by then minister Ralph Goodale. This bill will bring accountability for officers' conduct to an independent commission that will have legislative authority to review complaints. This is most appropriate for an agency that empowers border service agents with very broad legislative powers.

I want to acknowledge that, since 2009, the CBSA has made strides to build a more comprehensive complaints process, and the agency has done well to track it and promote accountability. President O'Gorman and former president Ossowski have both been champions of transformation at CBSA.

In Akwesasne, it is my council’s priority to mitigate the number of negative interactions between CBSA officers on the line and the members of my community. It is my philosophy that negative interactions can lead to a larger problem. Wait times and treatment are major contributors to frustrations, and when an Akwesasne member or a BSO is frustrated, there is an increased chance of a negative interaction. This is where complaints come from. Bill C-20 will provide greater confidence in the complaints process, not only for the travelling public but for members of my community.

As the review commission becomes a reality, I must express some concerns with the implementation. Commission members should be required to complete indigenous awareness training. Indigenous people, like Akwesasne Mohawks, have inherent rights that are not described or recognized by the Customs Act. Our rights are not found in regulations and acts that govern CBSA, and many Mohawks exercise their rights, which can lead to a disagreement between a BSO and members of Akwesasne. These instances could lead to a review by a commission member, and they need to have the appropriate understanding of an indigenous member's assertions.

Upon further review of Bill C-20, I want to bring a concern to your attention. Matters deemed to be under national security are not subject to review by the commission. I fully support the need to protect and act accordingly with national security measures. My community is a partner in keeping the border safe. Having said that, the Warrior Society has been classified in government documentation and material as a militant group, which could be construed as an interaction under national security. Therefore, an identified Warrior Society member could experience a negative interaction at CBSA, and this instance could be exempt from review.

Any national security classification should not include indigenous activists. Dr. Cindy Blackstock is known to be a target of unwarranted surveillance for being an indigenous child rights activist, and the same overreach cannot happen under national security interactions at CBSA.

In closing, the process to file must be simplified. It cannot be a comprehensive process. Telephone and paper must be an option. COVID taught us that elders do not have ArriveCAN apps, elders do not have smart phones and elders are large users in Akwesasne and in other places across Canada, especially where entertainment facilities exist across the border.

Akwesasne supports Bill C-20. Accountability is paramount to ensuring that the border experience of our members is not overshadowed by negative interactions and the mistakes of the past. That is important to us.

Niawen’kó:wa for the opportunity to present today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, sir.

We will now start our rounds of questions with Mr. Shipley, please, for six minutes.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

I'm going to start my questioning with you, Mr. Obed.

My first question has to do with the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, which submitted a brief where they noted that currently, most “complaints are investigated by the RCMP. Although the CRCC currently has the power to investigate a complaint...this rarely happens.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Excuse me, Mr. Shipley, but the bells are going. We have a vote.

Do we have unanimous consent to carry on? If we all vote electronically, we can carry on quite far. Shall we carry on to five minutes before the vote?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Let's carry on until five minutes before and do what we can do. Then we will get it done. Thank you.

Carry on, Mr. Shipley. I will start your time over.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I will start over again.

The Canadian Civil Liberties Association submitted a brief where they noted that currently, most “complaints are investigated by the RCMP. Although the CRCC currently has the power to investigate a complaint...this rarely happens. In 2020, the head of Nunavut’s legal aid service called the existing CRCC ‘fundamentally flawed as a model for civilian oversight’ because all it provided...was ‘some sort of oversight over internal discipline.’”

Do you share the same concern that this new PCRC will continue to consist of police investigating police? If so, would you like to see a truly independent complaints process?

[Natan Obed]

I will ask Chris Stewart to respond.

[Chris Stewart, Assistant Director, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami]

Through our work with the justice working group at ITK, we have discussed at length the current structure of the CRCC, including how the complaints process carries out.

There have been concerns about how police investigating police may not result in an investigation that would be fulsome. However, we haven't really explored what alternatives might be within our working group.

If it would be helpful, we would be happy to take that back to our working group and report back to the committee.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that.

My second question is still for your group. Last year, the ITK and RCMP came to an agreement on a reconciliation plan stemming from ITK's national Inuit action plan. Are there any recommendations from this action plan that you would like to see integrated into amendments to Bill C-20?

[Natan Obed]

With our work plan with the RCMP and the MOU we have signed, we are still in the very early stages, but one of the key components and one of the first things we are hoping to do with the RCMP is to create a more fulsome cross-cultural training opportunity for the RCMP. Perhaps there could be provisions in the act that would mandate, as the other witness had said, the ability for all people who serve Inuit or indigenous peoples to have the necessary cross-cultural training to have respectful interactions.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

Just quickly, you mentioned in your opening remarks that you think there definitely needs to be more representation of your local people in the local police services. Do you know if they're going out now and reaching out to your local community, or are you also helping your own local community to become involved and to want to apply for the service?

[Natan Obed]

There have been large recruiting efforts for Inuit within the RCMP.

There are some huge barriers to this, whether it be serving your own community...and the challenges that come with that. Also, there is the transitory nature of being an RCMP officer on the ground. You don't know where your next posting might be, so if you're from a community and you want to stay in that community, you would probably want a different line of work.

There's also the systemic racism for Inuit that has plagued policing services and the institution of the RCMP for a long time. We're trying to break down some of those barriers, but for sure we want to do more to recruit and, hopefully for the RCMP, to retain Inuit who can help serve our communities and provide a perspective. That would be hugely beneficial to the work we're all trying to do together, which is to keep our communities safe and enforce the rule of law.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

It's a bit of good news that there's some effort being put towards that.

You mentioned the transitory and perhaps sometimes necessary movement of RCMP officers. I know they're having a tough time with recruitment across Canada. I hope they will keep in mind that it would help to keep some of your people locally in the neighbourhood. Let's hope that message gets through to them.

My next question is for Grand Chief Benedict.

Grand Chief, are you concerned that the current complaint structure leads to police investigating police? If so, can you speak to the need for a fully independent complaints process for the CBSA and RCMP?

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

Yes, absolutely. The theory of badge reviewing badge is concerning to us. The experience we have had previously, several years ago, was with a very loose complaints process with Canada Customs. It has improved, but it's about confidence, credibility and objectivity for our members.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

Do I have some time left, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You have one minute.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

I have one last question, then.

A few years ago, you provided the statistic that 70% of the daily traffic that goes through the port of entry in Cornwall and deals with CBSA officials on the front lines is from members of Akwesasne. Given the unique mobility needs of your community, can you share with the committee what you have heard from community members regarding the current CBSA complaints process and what you would like to see in the new PCRC, please?