Public Safety Committee on June 9th, 2023

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

I want to start by thanking you and your team for the work that you do and the empathetic and thorough investigations you conduct. The change we've seen since you've taken over the CRCC has been tremendous. I know it's not just you. I know you have a whole team behind you, but the leadership sets the tone for the whole commission. I want to thank you sincerely for your work.

I'm sure you've been following the testimony and know that I've brought up the issue of a reservist not being someone who can be subject to review. I'm wondering if you think that's something we can fix with a legislative change in the bill, or if a directive from the minister might help in directing to help fill that gap.

I know that right now, it's not something you can review yourself as a commission.

[Michelaine Lahaie]

I think this is an issue the government really has to look at. Right now, when a Canadian has an interaction with a member of the RCMP, they have no way of knowing if they're a reservist or a regular member. Every individual has the same authorities when it comes to use of force, powers of arrest and the equipment that they can use, so this is obviously a critical gap that needs to be filled.

In terms of the mechanism, I'm not sure if putting it into this legislation would work, because I'm really not sure about the labour pieces that go along with this. This is an issue that needs to be studied, but it is definitely a gap, and it needs to be filled and resolved.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

When President Obed was here, he was talking about the need for investigators to have knowledge of Inuit culture and language. Are you able to do that when you're investigating, particularly with respect to Inuit individuals who come forward?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Right now, I don't have any investigators on my team who are Inuit, but we can certainly make use of contract resources to do that. The commission has used contract resources in the past for complaint investigations.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the need for you to be able to do these systemic reviews and why it's important to change the bill to allow you to do that.

[Michelaine Lahaie]

I refer to systemic reviews as our opportunity to fix policing before the police officer walks out the door. That's how I see them. We deal with large systemic issues. I refer back to the commission's report on personal searches and strip searches. We made some seminal recommendations in that which fundamentally changed the way the RCMP is doing their business when it comes to these searches, because obviously, a search like that takes away a great deal of an individual's personal liberty.

These are the types of investigations where we could identify trends, look at different things that are happening in the world and actually dig in and make some recommendations to fix policy, fix procedures and fix training. The other part about systemic investigations is I also see them as really enabling the police officers who are out doing the important work they do to better do their jobs. That's the way I see them. I think that these investigations are absolutely critical. They can't take second place to public complaints. They have to be on the level with public complaints.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

As you know, Mel Cappe did a report on this. We have heard a lot of testimony about police investigating police. He said:

I think...you have to keep the responsibility for doing these investigations on the agency.... I think you want to keep the burden of responsibility on the agency.... I want the agency to be responsible for its own efficiency and for it effectiveness in delivering service, so I'd keep those resources in the agency.

I wonder if you could comment on that and how you see your role versus the complaints that might come in and then are investigated by either the CBSA or the RCMP.

[Michelaine Lahaie]

I also watched Mr. Sauvé's testimony, and I think that I fall somewhere in the middle there.

I currently have this authority. I can initiate an investigation at any time. I have that authority as the chairperson. What the commission needs is additional resources to be able to do that more often. I think there is great strength and sometimes having the agency look at these things, because for a minor issue....

Let's say a police officer swore at somebody in the course of giving out a ticket. I would suggest—and I know, Mr. Motz, you were of the same opinion when I watched one of the earlier sessions—those are the cases that the agencies themselves should be handling. But when we're getting into serious incidents of use of force or when individuals' personal liberties have been violated, then those are the cases where the commission needs to step in. I fall in the middle of this, but it really is a question of resources for me more than anything else.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I only have about 30 seconds, but I think you can probably answer yes or no to this one.

When it comes to NSIRA, would you be supportive of the annual report that comes out including the number of times that you refer a case to NSIRA?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Yes, there's no issue with our doing that. We already have that data available right now.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

There's talk about the data that you're going to get. Would you be supportive of expanding that to be demographic data?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Absolutely. I think that's really important. We need to look at all the intersectionalities as opposed to just race-based data.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you very much.

That's it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You're right on the dot.

Thank you.

Ms. Michaud, you have six minutes. Go ahead.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, ladies. We appreciate it.

You talked about how the commission works now, saying you conduct a review when a complainant is not satisfied with how their complaint was resolved. You recommended that the new commission have the ability to initiate a review on its own if the complainant decides not to pursue the process.

I saw in the news that, in January 2019, you rendered a decision on the disappearance and death of Amanda Michayluk, a young woman in Saskatchewan. In your report, you criticized the work of the RCMP officers involved. You called their conduct “unconscionable”, and said that the investigation was hampered by shoddy policing, tunnel vision and stereotypes. You also say in the report that the officers failed to conduct an adequate ground search.

I assume you were able to look into that particular case because a complaint had been brought forward. Had the complaint not been made, you wouldn't have been able to conduct a review. Do I have that right?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Yes, that's correct.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I'd like you to talk more about how important it is to be able to initiate reviews on your own initiative in situations where people do not file a complaint or choose not to pursue the process. Have you identified cases in which certain issues do indeed need to be brought to the RCMP's attention?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

I'll use the Colton Boushie case as an example. We conducted a major investigation into his death. His uncle, Alvin Baptiste, submitted a complaint to the RCMP first, but he wasn't satisfied with the outcome of the RCMP's investigation into the complaint, so he requested that the case be reviewed. That's when the commission decided to conduct its own investigation. Mr. Baptiste showed tremendous strength in sharing with us what his family had been through and how horrific it was.

When people are at risk and tell us that they want to give up after they've gone through the whole investigation process, that is when I can step in. I can tell them that the commission is going to review their case and that I will be responsible for the decision regarding the complaint and that they won't have to submit another complaint.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

You talked about conducting systemic investigations, and that's something we've heard from a few witnesses, including the CBSA union president. He said that, in some cases, the specific officer's conduct is what needs to be investigated, but that in others, the problem seems to be systemic because it's coming from upper management.

He suggested that officers themselves be allowed to submit complaints regarding their supervisors to the commission. As of now, our understanding is that the commission was created specifically to address complaints from the public. However, what do you think of the idea? Should a separate commission be created? Could the same mechanism be used, and if so, would you need more resources?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

In that case, I think they really need to go through the grievance system. I think that's the approach they should take, supported by the union. That's not to say that the commission can't look into problems within the agency, as it does with the RCMP. However, the commission's mandate is more about addressing complaints from the public than about dealing with problems in the agency.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

You said you have about 90 people on your staff and a yearly budget of $15.2 million. The government said that it would invest $112.3 million in the new commission over six years, which is about $18.7 million per year. After those six years, the commission would get about $19 million annually.

Do you think that's enough funding, given that the new commission will have to review complaints against not only the RCMP, but also CBSA? I don't know whether it will amount to double the work, but the funding doesn't seem to match. What do you think? Does the funding seem adequate?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

The most important thing to identify will be how many complaints come in. When we submitted our request for funding, we based it on three scenarios: 6,000 complaints, 9,000 complaints and 12,000 complaints. We don't know which amount we will get, but as I said, we asked for more than we'll get, as with the agency and the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency. I think we could have better funding, but we really have to wait to see how many complaints come in.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

In your opening statement, you talked about the deadlines for responding to reports. Can you talk more about that?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Of course.

The last time I was here, I asked that the RCMP commissioner or the president of the agency be required to respond to our reports within six months. Even the Federal Court raised the issue. It was included in the bill, and I think it's very important. We are quite glad.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, ladies.

We go now to Mr. Julian.

Mr. Julian, go ahead, please. You have six minutes.