Public Safety Committee on June 9th, 2023

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Lahaie, clause 38 of the bill provides for third parties to bring forward a complaint on someone's behalf, and that has been well received. Public interest groups, refugee advocacy associations and other groups would like the bill to go further. They would like it to give third parties the ability to report a systemic problem, to bring forward a complaint on their own or without the permission of the individual concerned. I wondered what you thought about that.

Personally, I don't think it's a bad idea, but I worry that it would increase the number of complaints and bog down the process. If someone takes the time to submit their own complaint or if a third party does it for them, the person is obviously hoping for a fairly quick response. However, if groups started bringing forward complaints about any issue, wouldn't it mean longer wait times for those who submitted their own complaints?

I still haven't made my mind up, so I'd like to hear your view.

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Third parties can be put into two categories. There are those that submit a complaint on behalf of the person who had the negative experience, and there are those who submit complaints based on what they've seen on YouTube or the news, say. Those are two different groups of third parties.

I agree that the first group should be able to submit complaints. However, lawyers sometimes want to bring systemic issues they have observed to our attention, and we listen to what they have to say. It doesn't mean that I'm going to initiate a review, but I am willing to listen. I am also well aware that non-governmental organizations are usually the ones who examine these issues.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Actually, it's usually refugee advocacy groups and lawyers that want to initiate the process on behalf of clients who are reluctant to bring forward a complaint out of fear that it would hurt them in the immigration process. If those people are removed from the country, they don't necessarily have the means to pursue the process, so it struck me as a worthwhile option. Thank you for your comments.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll go now to Mr. Julian.

Go ahead, please, sir, for two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks so much, Mr. Chair.

I've really found this a very valuable session.

Thanks very much, Madam Lahaie and Madam Gibb.

We've talked a bit about resources and responding to the quantity of complaints. I'd like to address the issue of resources in terms of responding and getting it right, as you mentioned.

You talked earlier about having a contract resource for handling complaints from indigenous peoples whose first language is Inuktitut. We know that the number of complaints is proportionally higher because of the number of incidences among racialized Canadians who are often of diverse origins and indigenous peoples.

I'm concerned about the underfunding. It seems to be perhaps less than half of what is needed when it comes to responding to the needs of those communities. For example, if you are unable to hire an investigator who speaks Inuktitut, you have to rely on contract resources. How does that have an impact on your overall work?

In a world where you're adequately resourced, would you not be hiring investigators that can speak indigenous languages and some of the many languages of the diasporas of new Canadians?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

As the chairperson, I would love nothing more than to have indigenous representation within my investigators and all of the different diasporas within our investigations. In cases where we don't have that, we do use translation services.

We're in the process of completing an investigation up in Iqaluit. We used translation services as well as social support services to conduct an interview with an Inuk man.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

It's fair to say that translation services are not ideal not only in terms of the quantity of complaints coming forward, but also in terms of how you can effectively deal with them to really get to the bottom of things.

Would it be fair to say that the substantial underfunding that you've really testified to is primarily going to have an impact on investigations linked to indigenous peoples or to racialized Canadians?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Yes, that's a fair statement, absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

We go now to Ms. Dancho.

Ms. Dancho, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both of you for being here.

This is such an important discussion. As Mr. Motz said in his opening, certainly the Conservative Party, the official opposition, recognizes the need for very strong oversight on those who wield considerable power to enforce our laws, whether that's CBSA frontline officers or RCMP frontline officers.

I'm going to build on a lot of the questions that have already been asked about resourcing and how you're going to be able to manage this broader workload. It sounds like the funding that has been announced, although welcomed, is not nearly enough for what you'd like to do.

I have a few logistic questions. You mentioned that your average case takes six to 12 months to investigate. Is that an accurate assessment?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Right now, with the RCMP doing investigations, their service standard is six months.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

That's the RCMP's investigation.

When it gets to you, those are exclusively serious cases. Is that correct? It's the use of force or a violation of personal liberties, right?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Yes, those ones will depend, obviously, on the complexity of the situation.

On the Boushie file, for example, the investigation and preparation of the report were just under two years.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Just to be clear, then, you get the cases that are the most serious. Is that accurate?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

I would like to investigate the cases that are the most serious. Right now, I'm not resourced effectively to be able to investigate all of those very serious cases.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Okay, but with the example of an RCMP officer swearing at someone when they gave them a ticket, you're not getting those types of cases.

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Those ones would be referred to the RCMP all of the time for investigation.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

How many cases do you investigate annually? You may have mentioned this, but could you repeat it?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Right now, we're investigating about one or two annually. That's what we're doing.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

There are one or two cases.

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Yes.

Those are where we are using our own resources to do investigations; however, on the review side, when an individual re-engages with the process, we're doing about 300 to 350 reviews a year.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Okay.

When an individual makes a complaint, you do about 300 a year.

The ones you get to initiate under your purview are one to two, but you would like to do many more, as you mentioned. Correct? Okay.

Of the 300, it takes you six to 12 months. Is that correct?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Our service standard when somebody requests a review is 120 days after we have received all of the relevant material from the RCMP. At present, we're meeting that service standard about 65% of the time.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Okay.

How long does it take for you to get all that information from the RCMP?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

It really depends upon the situation. In fact, one of the recommendations we have put forth is that it should be entrenched in regulations how long they have to provide that information.

Our current MOU speaks to that with the RCMP. I think it's six weeks that they're supposed to give us the information. They miss that timeline frequently.