Public Safety Committee on June 9th, 2023

[Michelaine Lahaie]

I obviously called for this when I came before the committee when you were doing your study into systemic racism in policing. I think we need to understand who's complaining, but we also need to understand who's not complaining, and why aren't they complaining. For example, we would say that in the territory of Nunavut they are vastly under-represented in the public complaint process because we don't get a lot of complaints, but it's a population that I believe you would all agree is over-policed.

It's important for us to know so we can target our public education. It's also so we can actually look at whether there are certain marginalized groups that are experiencing greater issues with their interactions with police or with CBSA.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

In regard to complaints, in every RCMP detachment, do you have information for the public to pick up in regard to if they have a complaint against an officer?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Yes, we do. We did a brochure distribution project. In fact, up in Nunavut, they're all available in Inuktitut.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Is that information readily available for communities to look at?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

It is supposed to be available at all the detachments. That's the deal we have with them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Chiang.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Is my time up?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Yes.

That wraps up our second round of questions. That actually wraps up our panel.

I'd like to thank both Ms. Lahaie and Ms. Gibb for their time here today. It has been most valuable. We appreciate your expertise and sharing your time with us today.

We will suspend for a few minutes to bring in the next panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting back to order.

I'd like to welcome our second panel of witnesses for today. We have three groups represented here.

In person, from Breaking Barriers Together, we have Ms. Cheryl Jarvis, retired sergeant, Royal Canadian Mounted Police; and Janet Merlo, retired constable, Royal Canadian Mounted Police. With the Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers, we have Aviva Basman, president; and Kate Webster, co-chair of the advocacy committee.

With us by video conference we have from the File Hills First Nations Police Service, Mr. Dan Bellegarde, chair, board of police commissioners.

Welcome, everyone. Thank you for being with us today and helping us with our investigations.

We will start with up to a five-minute statement from each group.

We'll start with Breaking Barriers Together.

I believe Ms. Jarvis will start.

You have five minutes, please.

[Cheryl Jarvis, Retired Sergeant, Royal Canadian Mountain Police, Breaking Barriers Together]

Thank you very much.

Breaking Barriers Together is a group of former RCMP officers and public service employees. We're all retired from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. We have made a group because we believe strongly in making the RCMP better.

We believe there are four areas within Bill C-20 that need to be addressed. Bill C-20 needs to include internal misconduct and a clear definition of what misconduct is. No RCMP members who are retired or serving or their family members should be involved in investigations of complaints by the commission. The use of non-disclosure agreements should not be allowed through the commission. All of the decisions the commission makes need to be binding. There needs to be some form to hold people accountable for what we feel needs to be done.

Breaking Barriers believes that Bill C-20 must include internal misconduct.

Daniel Touchette created a report that shows that $2.68 billion has been spent or is deemed to have been spent for internal misconduct within the RCMP. Despite all the promises that were made during the Merlo Davidson settlement process, the investigation is still causing incredible harm to the victims. The process is fraught with personal bias, cultural bias, threats and intimidation.

We still need to remember that it's the RCMP investigating the RCMP. We have to remember that hundreds of the complaints, through the Merlo Davidson lawsuit, were originally investigated by the RCMP and were found to be unfounded. As soon as those complaints went to an independent investigation area, they found, all of a sudden, that they were founded. This creates a lot of harm for the victims.

The Honourable Michel Bastarache, the independent assessor for the group, came up with three key areas in discipline that he found were a problem. There was perception of bias and the unfairness of the process, the likelihood of retaliation for making a complaint and the lack of meaningful discipline or consequences for the officers' actions. We've heard from hundreds of serving RCMP officers that this process is still taking place and that it is still a problem within the process.

The problem with the RCMP is the culture. It is a toxic workplace. Bill C-20 has the ability to address that culture and to try to make it a better place to work.

There are 130 of us identified in the Merlo Davison lawsuit who were victims of rape by other RCMP officers. Not one of those perpetrators, even though we have made criminal complaints, has ever come to justice for that. They retired with a pension, and there were no problems.

We need to remember that Bill C-20 is supposed to make all Canadians equal, feel safe and get fair treatment by the RCMP and by CBSA. Therefore, we need to allow internal misconduct to be part of that, so that part can be rectified.

We believe that no RCMP officers or their families should ever be involved in or have anything to do with serious conduct problems within the RCMP. We need to remember that they are part of the group. They have loyalties to the RCMP, even though they're retired. We need to make sure that they are investigated by external organizations.

We also need to remember non-disclosure agreements. The RCMP is famous for, when there's a problem, making sure that they cover things up by using non-disclosure agreements. All that does is allow for the victim to be silenced and for the problem to go away, and no one ever finds out about the problem. They need to be prohibited in Bill C-20 so that we can't hide those problems anymore.

The most important thing is that we can say, “no RCMP members”. We can say “internal misconduct”. We can say all of those things, but, if we don't make the decisions that the commission comes to binding, then we will be in the same place we are.

We've had recommendation after recommendation made for 10, 15 or 20 years that these are the problems, and that's what needs to change.

Until those decisions that the commission comes to are binding and will actually force them to make a decision to follow the direction that is given to them, the problem will continue. It won't change, and then we're right back to where we started.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll go now to the Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers.

I believe it's Ms. Basman, but whoever wishes to speak, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Kate Webster, Co-Chair of the Advocacy Committee, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to testify before the committee today.

I am here with my colleague, Aviva Basman, representing the Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers. We are a national organization engaged in advocacy, strategic litigation and education to promote and defend the rights of refugees and immigrants in Canada.

We are, overall, supportive of Bill C-20. However, certain amendments are necessary to ensure that the resulting oversight body is both accessible and effective. The absence of oversight is especially problematic, considering the CBSA polices a sometimes vulnerable non-Canadian population who may lack English skills, may be traumatized, including at the hands of state authorities, and may lack secure status in Canada.

The stakes are high. There have been at least 16 deaths in immigration detention in the last 20 years. CBSA has faced allegations that it engages in racial profiling in carrying out its statutory duties, targeting certain groups for increased scrutiny, arrests and detention.

Our written brief focuses on three amendments, including red-lined provisions of how they could be implemented.

Our first recommendation concerns the ability of the commission to receive general or systemic complaints. As drafted, Bill C-20 does not require the commission to respond to complaints about systemic issues or general policy, and that's a problem. Often, abuse or mistreatment, especially on issues like racial profiling, is only apparent when one aggregates cases. The commission must be able to examine issues at a systemic level, as opposed to solely on a case-by-case basis.

While clause 28, the clause that permits review of specified activities at the commission's initiative or at the direction of the minister, may be a valuable tool, it is inadequate to address the issue. If the intent is that the commission had the power to investigate and address systemic issues, it must be able to receive systemic complaints. It must also be properly resourced to investigate and address them.

We appreciate the minister's recognition at the outset of these hearings of the pervasive nature of anti-Black and anti-indigenous racism in policing and in our justice system. We applaud the intent that the commission be empowered to help in combatting this legacy, but the commission must be given the tools to properly do so.

The question of who is best positioned to identify and raise systemic or policy issues leads us to our second recommendation. As you are aware, Bill C-20 allows the commission to refuse a complaint simply because it is brought by a third party—that is, if it is not brought by someone directly affected, by a witness or by someone with express written consent.

As I mentioned, certain issues are only apparent when viewed in aggregate across a number of cases. It is third parties, such as human rights organizations, that are uniquely positioned to bring such systemic issues to the commission. You heard in compelling testimony from the Canadian Council for Refugees the myriad ways in which refugees and migrants are vulnerable in Canada and face substantial barriers in making complaints. We echo those concerns and are strongly urging an amendment that will allow for third party complaints. We have proposed specific wording in our written brief.

Our third recommendation relates to overbroad limitations on the commission's jurisdiction, including expansive language requiring that a complaint be refused if it has been or could have been adequately dealt with or could more appropriately be dealt with according to another legal process. This section does not require that any other procedure be under way before the prohibition applies.

Restricting the commission's jurisdiction to investigate alleged misconduct on the mere possibility that another agency might investigate is deeply problematic. We urge that this clause be amended to set out specific circumstances where an investigation may be refused. We recommend a similar amendment regarding ambiguous language in another part of the same clause.

As I mentioned, we have proposed specific wording in our written brief to address these concerns.

Finally, having reviewed the written submissions of other civil society organizations, we endorse numerous additional recommendations. We welcome the opportunity to elaborate on those issues in questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll go now to Mr. Bellegarde.

Mr. Bellegarde, please go ahead. You have five minutes.

[Dan Bellegarde, Chair, Board of Police Commissioners, File Hills First Nations Police Service]

Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and good morning to the committee and my fellow panellists.

I'm from Little Black Bear's Band of the Assiniboine Cree in Treaty No. 4 territory, a board member of the Canadian Association on Police Governance, and chair to First Nations Police Governance Council. I'm also chair to File Hills' board of police commissioners, a first nations police service in Saskatchewan.

There are 36 self-administered police services in Canada. There are 22 in Quebec, nine in Ontario, only six west of Ontario and none in the north and in the Maritimes. That's because primarily there are federal-provincial-territorial policing agreements...20 years where the RCMP provided contract to leasing to that jurisdiction.

There are 114 RCMP detachments in Saskatchewan, many of them near the reserves of my people. Some are in larger cities like Yorkton, Battleford, North Battleford, Swift Current and Lloydminster. Alberta has about 118 detachments. British Columbia has 149. Manitoba has 86. New Brunswick has 39. Newfoundland and Labrador has 43. The territories have 22. Nova Scotia has 55. Nunavut has 26. Ontario has 13. P.E.I. has seven. Quebec has nine. Yukon has 14. Clearly, interaction between the RCMP and the public, particularly first nations people, is highest on the Prairies.

I'd briefly mention the Colton Boushie complaint of sloppy investigation. We find that on use of force complaints.... Recently there was an incident where an RCMP officer was accused of violence against first nations women. There are pictures of black eyes and bruises...concussions. Unfortunately for the officer, one of the women is a lawyer.

My first recommendation to the commission is that there should be a large footprint in the west, particularly a potential suboffice in the Prairies, possibly in Edmonton.

The board of police commissioners, municipal and first nations police services across the country are there to provide governance, not particularly oversight as such, although many boards have a particular emphasis on dealing with public complaints as well. They are the link between the police service and the community.

First nations with community tripartite agreements have something called a community consultative group, which is a far cry from a board of police commissioners.

As far as I know there are no police boards in any of the detachments that the RCMP has to be accountable for.

That brings it closer to the community. Boards are the voice of the public, and I don't know in terms of dealing with public complaints, but they should be the first level of dispute resolution.

Accessibility and protection of complainants is a problem in some of our areas. Small communities with an external police service will have a natural fear of reprisal through over-policing and under-protection. The “starlight tours” in Saskatchewan.... In the 1970s, Neil Stonechild froze to death in Saskatoon after being left on the road.

Now that has led to the development of something that I think is important.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Excuse me, Mr. Bellegarde. We have a point of order.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

My apologies, Mr. Chair, for interrupting the witness, but the poor audio quality is making it very difficult for the interpreter to interpret what Mr. Bellegarde is saying. Can you see whether there's a way to fix the problem? The interpreter is having a very hard time right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Mr. Bellegarde hadn't provided speaking notes, so they're interpreting live.

Mr. Bellegarde, I would ask you to speak very clearly and slow down a bit so the interpreters can keep up. I'll give you a bit of extra time to do that.

Please go ahead.

[Dan Bellegarde]

A special investigation unit in Saskatchewan was set up after the “starlight tours” inquiry, the Stonechild inquiry, as it's called. It's managed by the federation of [Inaudible—Editor] indigenous and works closely with Saskatchewan's Public Complaints Commission and the Saskatchewan Police Commission. They provide access to first nations who would otherwise not go to a system that they distrust, perhaps a system they do not have access to in the first place. It does provide that bridge, I think. This might be important.

Bill C-20 has a lot of RCMP discretion still built into it on whether to deal with complaints and how they deal with them. Also, a recommendation there would be to deal with complaints of various seriousness.

I think that most police services have what I would refer to as professional conduct and standards units that deal with the administrative or other complaints that can be dealt with without having to go through the long road of, essentially, an inquiry by the commission, which may take a year, or more than a year to deal with.

The thing is to work with first nations infrastructure for public education and to build trust in the complaints process and to move things along, the advocacy that first tribal councils, PTOs, as they're called, as well as various police boards across the country can provide, and also training and education for commission members. Investigators and staff have to be culturally sensitive and trauma-informed when dealing with first nations people in the communities. There should be some discussion on that.

I'll set that before you and wait for your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, sir.

We will start our first round of questions with Ms. Dancho, please.

You have six minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here. I very much appreciate your presence and your testimony.

I have some questions for Ms. Jarvis and Ms. Merlo.

Thank you very much for your courage and for sharing your thoughts and your lived experience of how this bill can be improved to better protect RCMP officers themselves, along with others who are making complaints.

I have some questions on how we can address some of the things you've said. I think we're hearing commonality with others who have come forward.

When the CBSA frontline union president, Mark Weber, was here, he mentioned that there are cases. He gave the example that there was a middle manager who had ordered a strip search of a busload of kids. He wants to see Bill C-20 have the ability for officers to make those complaints about their superiors, certainly when they impact the public, or perhaps in your case, other officers.

I got the sense that you share that perspective. Could you provide a bit more information on how Bill C-20 should be improved in that regard?

[Janet Merlo, Retired Constable, Royal Canadian Mountain Police, Breaking Barriers Together]

I'll try to answer that.

We have found over the years that there is nowhere for the RCMP employees and personnel to go to report those types of things that are happening. They created an independent centre of harassment resolution as part of our lawsuit, but it's woefully underfunded and understaffed. It deals with harassment; it doesn't deal with a lot of the other issues that are there.

Yes, for years, even in my case, they did a two-year investigation of themselves and came back and said that nothing had happened, that everything was unfounded. Then later on, 3,200 women came forward in our lawsuit. I was the representative plaintiff after the RCMP said that everything was unfounded.

As long as you have that entity investigating themselves on internal misconduct and internal crimes that are happening, nothing is going to change because they investigate themselves. “Unfounded” seems to be the word that results.

It's just one thing after another, year after year. Like my partner here said, we still hear from women, almost weekly, who reach out to us for help and advice because they're stuck in some level of hell within the RCMP, with nowhere to go to make those complaints.

On the first day, when Mr. Mendicino was here, I saw the meeting. He said that Bill C-20 was to give all Canadians an equal, fair and respectful place to make these complaints. But if you don't include internal misconduct, what you're doing is basically leaving out all the employees, the public servants, the volunteers, all the people who work within the police force, support staff and members, who still have nowhere, really, to go.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you for that.

Did you say 3,200 women came forward after your initial...?

[Janet Merlo]

Yes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much for your bravery, ma'am. It's very inspiring and certainly—I would imagine, I can't speak for those women—you really gave them courage and probably changed their lives. Thank you for that, very much.

To build on your feedback, we also heard a similar vein from Brian Sauvé, the head of the RCMP union, who also says that RCMP officers should not be investigating each other. I'm hearing that you would agree with that. Is that correct?