Public Safety Committee on Sept. 27th, 2023

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I agree.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Everyone, please address members through the chair.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I assure the committee that this is not a filibuster. We are concerned MPs raising our voices, and we want to get around to voting on this today.

I'm sure many members on both sides have had many emails, many calls, many comments and many questions about Paul Bernardo. Quite frankly, even saying his name doesn't come easy.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

It comes pretty easy over there.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Are we going to allow this or not?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I didn't hear anything. I'm sorry.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Well, I certainly did.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I was focused on something else. If I missed something, I apologize.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

On June 1, Canadians learned that Correctional Service Canada was transferring a mass killer, serial rapist and torturer, Paul Bernardo, from a maximum-security prison to a medium-security prison.

This was brought up at subcommittee, Chair. We tried to put it in there and it didn't get put in. We decided to bring this up today to see if we could somehow get this in as a study. If it had been approved on Monday, we would not be having this discussion here today.

I have pages and pages of what I could be discussing and reading, but I don't want to be accused of being partisan whatsoever. I'm going to use other people's words. They're not my words.

First, I have a letter from Thorold city council, dated June 20, 2023, regarding Paul Bernardo:

Thorold City Council, at its meeting held on June 20, 2023, passed the following resolution:

That the Mayor BE REQUESTED to prepare and send a letter to Corrections Canada, local area Members of Parliament, expressing support for keeping Paul Bernardo in a maximum security placement.

A copy of the letter sent to Commissioner Anne Kelly is attached herein.

I was on city council for many years. When we'd send these letters, I'd sometimes wonder if anybody here actually read them. I'm going to make sure that this one gets in the record. It's not very long. I'm just going to read it, as follows:

Dear Commissioner,

Re: Support for Keeping Paul Bernardo in Maximum Security Placement

I am writing to express the unwavering support of the City of Thorold in favor of keeping Paul Bernardo in a maximum-security placement within the Correctional Service Canada system. As the Mayor of the City of Thorold, I represent a community deeply affected by the heinous crimes committed by Mr. Bernardo and remain committed to advocating for the safety and well-being of our residents.

The gravity of Mr. Bernardo's crimes, and the devastating impact they had on the lives of innocent individuals and their families, cannot be understated. Our community, along with the wider Niagara region, continues to bear the scars left by these reprehensible actions. It is of utmost importance that we prioritize public safety and ensure that those who pose a significant risk to society are appropriately confined and monitored.

We acknowledge that decisions regarding the placement of individuals within the correctional system require a comprehensive evaluation of various factors, including the level of risk they present and the potential for harm to others. In the case of Paul Bernardo, his past actions and the severity of his offenses demand the highest level of security to safeguard our community from any potential danger.

Furthermore, we are aware that public safety is a shared responsibility among different levels of government and local communities. To that end, I am copying Niagara's local area municipalities on this letter to ensure that they are aware of our stance and, should they feel inclined, join us in expressing their support for keeping Mr. Bernardo in a maximum-security placement.

The residents of the City of Thorold and the Niagara Region deserve to live in an environment where they feel safe and secure. We trust that you will carefully consider the concerns of our community, along with the collective voices of others within the Niagara Region, when making any decisions regarding the placement and management of Paul Bernardo.

Thank you for your attention to this matter. We look forward to a response and remain committed to working with you to ensure the safety and well-being not only of our community, but all communities across Canada.

Sincerely,

Terry Ugulini

Mayor, City of Thorold

Again, those are not my words.

I have one more letter. It won't take long. This one is from St. Catharines, as follows:

Dear Prime Minister Trudeau,

At its meeting held on July 24, 2023, St. Catharines City Council approved the following motion:

WHEREAS the Correctional Service of Canada (CSC) has published their report regarding the transfer of an inmate from maximum security Millhaven Institution to medium security La Macaza Institution; and

WHEREAS Timothy Danson, counsel for the French and Mahaffy Families, has released preliminary observations on the Report; and

WHEREAS Timothy Danson’s observations include that nothing has changed with the inmate in the past 30 years—the parole board has found twice that the inmate has no remorse, empathy or insight into his crimes; that the requirement that the choice of penitentiary must be the least restrictive for the offender cannot be applied mechanically to all offenders; the punishment aspect of this inmate’s sentence does not appear to have been factored into the transfer and that the privacy of the offender was put ahead of the victims, their families and the public;

THEREFORE BE IS RESOLVED that St. Catharines City Council request that the Government of Canada review and consider legislation changes to ensure transparency in the corrections and parole system and examine the guidelines around moving dangerous offenders and sadistic psychopaths who have not exhibited any remorse, empathy or insight into their crimes into medium security prisons; and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this resolution be circulation to the Minister of Public Safety, the Honourable Marco Mendicino; the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, the Honourable David Lametti; MP Chris Bittle; MP Vance Badawey; MP Dean Allison; MP Tony Baldinelli; and Prime Minister Trudeau.

If you have any questions, please contact the Office of the City Clerk, at extension 1524.

Kristen Sullivan, City Clerk

As I said, Mr. Chair, I just want to put those on the record. Those aren't my words. Those are from two city councils that lived through this.

I think that maybe one of the issues with this is.... I am 57 years old; I remember Paul Bernardo. It was 30 years ago. I would imagine that most people under 45 years old, roughly, don't have as clear a recollection of just how vile this individual was. This man caused havoc around the city. I was living in downtown Toronto at the time, at Yonge and St. Clair, with my then fiancée. She and many women like her were afraid to go out. He was referred to as the “Scarborough rapist”.

I did print off a sheet that has all of his heinous actions. I'm not going to read them all. My original intention was to read them all, just to show people just how nasty and vile this guy is.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

This was promised not to be a filibuster, but we're going to read the horrific details—

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

No, I actually said that I wasn't going to read it. Well, I can now.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

—of this person's crimes when all of us acknowledge how terrible this is. This is being used for partisan gain, and it is disgusting, Mr. Chair. These members should know better. They're making witnesses wait. This is just a filibuster. The glee with which they drop the name, which I won't even use because it causes so much pain in my community—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

It's not a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I am under 45 years old, Mr. Shipley. I do understand how significant this is. You don't. Perhaps we should move on and stop using this as a filibuster.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Bittle.

It's not a point of order; that's true.

As I said, I know that emotions are high—and well they should be—so we'll try to keep this under control.

If we're going to continue for very long, it would be nice to be able to release the witnesses and bring them back next time.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I'm wrapping it up, Mr. Chair.

I actually said that I wasn't going to read it. My intention was to read it. If Mr. Bittle was listening to what I was saying.... I said that I wasn't going to read the list. He made me rethink that. However, I won't read it.

What I'm trying to say is that I've had people who were younger approach me and say that they didn't know, that they had never heard of Paul Bernardo. They don't know who he is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I can't limit your time anyway. As long as you're on topic, you have it.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I'm wrapping it up right now—reluctantly, because I think people need to know just who this vile human being is. He has caused tremendous hurt throughout the country, definitely throughout certain areas.

Basically, what we're looking for, on our side, is a study to discuss how this happened and how we can make sure that this never happens again. There is no partisanship in my words. Every single word I read is from two city councils that are not even in my area.

I'll leave it at that and see what my colleagues have to say.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

We have Mr. Lloyd, followed by Ms. O'Connell, followed by Madame Michaud.

Go ahead, Mr. Lloyd.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, this is definitely a tough issue, and for me personally. My family was a victim. My cousins were murdered just a few short years ago, an entire family wiped out by a mass killer. As somebody who has family who have gone through this—in that case, the killer did not live—I would want to know, if the killer were alive, that I would be consulted by Correctional Service Canada before any decisions were made on a transfer.

That's the thing about bureaucracies. Bureaucracies left unchecked have a tendency to become unemotional and legalistic, and sometimes the rights of victims and their families aren't put as the highest priority. It's our job, as parliamentarians who represent the people, who represent these victims' families, to make sure that the Government of Canada always puts the rights of victims and their families first. That's why I believe it is an essential role of this committee to review this.

There might be some arguments made that this committee might not have time to do something like this. Those are wrong. Judging by the schedule that we discussed in subcommittee, we have at least eight meetings potentially available before Christmas. I believe that we're being very reasonable in proposing five meetings on this subject. If there's an issue with five meetings, I know that we would be open to further discussion on that matter.

With that, I'll cede the floor.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

We're going now to Ms. O'Connell.

Go ahead, please.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to move an amendment, and then I'd like to speak to it.

The motion says, “That the committee hold”, and that's where my amendment starts. I move that the committee hold a meeting on the rights of victims of crime and the security reclassification and transfer of offenders within Correctional Services Canada, and that the committee invite the commissioner of corrections, Anne Kelly; Deputy Minister Shawn Tupper; and officials from the Department of Justice and the Department of Public Safety.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Basically, you're replacing—

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

It's everything following “That the committee hold”. My amendment replaces the rest of the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

The amendment appears to be in order, so go ahead if you wish to speak to it.