Public Safety Committee on Nov. 29th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 86 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking.

Feedback events can occur. This can be extremely harmful to interpreters and cause serious injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to a microphone. We therefore ask all participants to exercise a high degree of caution when handling the earpieces, especially when your microphone or your neighbour's microphone is turned on.

I would remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 23, 2023, the committee resumes its study of rights of victims of crime, reclassification and transfer of federal offenders.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses today.

In person, from the Office of the Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime, we have Dr. Benjamin Roebuck, federal ombudsperson for victims of crime.

As an individual, for victims' friends and families, we have Ms. Chwalczuk, Ms. Murray and Ms. Penner.

Welcome to all of you.

Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions. If it takes a little longer than five minutes, I will indulge you.

Perhaps we could start now with Mr. Roebuck, please.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Chair, I have a point of order.

I don't want to take any time. I just want to get this on the record in case any of our witnesses who aren't here don't know why Mr. Danson isn't here. They probably thought he was coming too. He was scheduled to be here. His headset did not arrive in time, so we're trying to work that out now.

If it doesn't arrive by the end of this meeting, we'll try to get him rescheduled. I just want to put that on the record so that everybody knows where Mr. Danson is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I just want to say that I fully support rescheduling if the headset does not arrive in time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

We have Mr. Roebuck, please.

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck, Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime]

Honourable members of the committee, thank you for inviting me.

We are on the traditional unceded, unsurrendered territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin nation. I honour the leadership, strength and wisdom of Indigenous peoples and I accept personal responsibility for pursuing justice and reconciliation.

Security reclassifications in inmate transfers from higher-security to lower-security institutions have received recent attention from politicians, the media and Canadians. My heart goes out to the families who have been victimized and have had to fight for information even in Federal Court. These are not new concerns for victims and survivors, and recent debates highlight how victim rights are overlooked.

Sadly, the Correctional Service of Canada's transfer review did not even mention the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights, in part because it had little to offer. While the CVBR has quasi-constitutional primacy over the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, victim complaints to federal agencies are generally deemed inadmissible or unfounded.

My office is non-partisan and operates at arm's length from Justice Canada. Our regulations do not permit us to review transfer decisions, but we are mandated to address victim complaints and ensure victims' rights to information, protection and participation are upheld by federal agencies. Rather than assessing whether legislation and policies were followed, an ombudsperson operates on the principles of procedural fairness and is intended to humanize government.

I am grateful for the correctional investigator's comments on the need for parity between our offices. We need supporting legislation and comparable resources. Currently the government spends less than 20¢ on victim complaints for every dollar spent on offender complaints to our respective offices.

We know that victims are not put first, and I'm not sure that people understand the importance of information to victims of crime. When someone has been seriously and intentionally harmed by another person, it's a common trauma response to need to know everything. Knowing the location of the person is especially important.

The transfer review concluded that more could have been done for the victims' families and recommended that CSC create a multidisciplinary working committee. This is under way, and our office is serving as a special adviser to the committee.

Also, following consultation with our office, the former minister of public safety issued a ministerial direction to CSC to meaningfully engage and elicit input prior to a transfer in order to engage with victims of crime. He directed CSC to work closely with our office and the federal Privacy Commissioner. We have been collaborating well and have made recommendations that are outlined in our submission to the committee. The same recommendations from our office have been provided to the multidisciplinary committee, and CSC is taking action to implement them.

Victim rights and offender rights can coexist. We can do a much better job of providing information while still respecting the Privacy Act.

How do we achieve that balance? The interests of victims of crime need to be given equal weight to the interests of the people who harmed them. It's not just the offender's transfer, the offender's parole hearing or the offender's release. These are significant for the people they have harmed.

Then whose information is it? We hear complaints from victims of crime that public servants get to pick and choose what victims are entitled to know and when, even if the consequences of not knowing cause fear, anxiety, post-traumatic stress responses or interfere with their ability to work. The impact of being told about a transfer as it happens or after it happens is grossly disproportionate to the privacy implications of providing advance notice.

The Corrections and Conditional Release Act is failing victims of crime. It limits information excessively, even upon request, and fails to provide protection and participation in ways that make sense to victims of crime. It is in conflict with the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights, which carries primacy in the event of inconsistency.

Canadians are demanding better, and policy changes and amendments to the CCRA could easily achieve that.

First, a trauma-informed and violence-informed approach needs to guide communication, allowing victims to share safety concerns without providing traumatic details repeatedly in victim statements.

Next, the principles of the CCRA should be amended to explicitly include victim rights to timely and relevant information, protection and participation. CSC should adopt a more proactive approach to informing victims on pending transfers, including information on how decisions are made and how to share safety concerns or request geographic restrictions. CSC needs a clear, non-discretionary process to disclose information about transfers before they occur, unless specific safety or security reasons are provided in writing in advance. It should be ensured that the geographic location of registered victims is considered in all transfer decisions. An offender should never be transferred to an institution close to victims before they've been notified.

Finally, victims need clear information that explains how they can register to be informed about an offender and their sentence and how to provide input for consideration before decisions are made. It should be clearly emphasized that unregistered victims will not receive information. To be clear, most victims of crime in Canada with a federally sentenced offender are never informed about a transfer at all, because they're not registered.

We want a more compassionate, victim-centred approach at the heart of CSC's transfer process. Victims and survivors of crime are worthy of respect and dignity and are worthy to receive information.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Roebuck.

Now I will invite Ms. Penner, Ms. Murray or Ms. Chwalczuk. As agreed prior to our meeting, take all of the time that you require for your opening remarks, please.

[Marcia Penner, As an Individual]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and honourable members.

My name is Marcia Penner. I want to thank you all for inviting us here today to be part of this witness panel and to testify on the impact of the moving of Paul Bernardo and all other maximum security prisoners.

When asked how this move has affected me, my quick answer is, “How hasn't it?”

When I received the news of this move, my heart dropped, and 31 years of anguish, anger, fear and despair rushed in and brought me right back to the day Kristen was brutally killed. That day, our lives changed forever, and our innocence was lost. Our naive perspective of the world would be forever tarnished. That day, I started to believe in monsters and had the harsh realization that true evil existed all around us. That day, we realized we were no longer safe.

I understand that the CSC, as well as Commissioner Anne Kelly, seemingly followed all stipulated guidelines and regulations while assessing this decision. All necessary boxes were allegedly checked, and criteria were met to accommodate this move. It is without question that a narcissistic psychopath such as Paul Bernardo would have no issue manipulating that system. Someone of his calibre would have no problem composing the appropriate answers necessary to warrant a move to a lower-security institution, a transfer that he himself instigated. It is also no surprise that after 31 years of not fulfilling the requirements to warrant a move, he was able to convince the CSC that he could now play nice with other inmates at an institution filled with similarly designated prisoners.

Prior to the decision to allow Paul Bernardo to remain in medium security, I forwarded a meta-analysis along with a letter submitted by Dr. Angela Book. Dr. Book has studied psychopaths for her entire career and clearly states in her letter that Bernardo cannot be rehabilitated.

The presiding judge at the Bernardo trial, Patrick LeSage, stated, “Mr. Bernardo...you have no right to ever be released. The behavioural restraint that you require is jail. You require it, in my view, for the rest of your natural life. You are a sexually sadistic psychopath.”

Does the designation “dangerous offender” not hold any weight? This man is the worst of the worst: a pedophile rapist, a sexual sadist, a psychopath and a murderer. There are no worse crimes. If he doesn't fit the mandatory requirements for a maximum security stay, then who does?

Because he didn't pose any threat to the staff within the jail, is he no longer a threat? If he escapes, is he no longer a danger to all of us? What about the victims he hurt and murdered, whose lives he stole without their having any choice?

It is also my understanding that Ms. Kelly was quoted as saying the department has “compassion for the victims.” I challenge that statement, as this decision was made and shared with the Liberal government four months prior to the move, but the families were notified the day of the move.

When the government was asked about its knowledge of this, it denied knowing anything about it. It was also reported that any media or public backlash would be taken care of in regard to this move. Is this consideration for victims or their families? How are we to have any faith or trust in our elected officials when little to no regard is given when dealing with such a highly sensitive case as this one?

When does this end? Each and every time this monster takes the spotlight and gets his face in the media, all the victims and their families and friends are revictimized and retraumatized all over again. The victims' and families' voices are heard during trial and parole hearings, but then they are muted when it comes to important decisions such as reclassification and reintegration.

By moving Paul Bernardo from a maximum security to a medium security facility, you are telling the victims and their families that what happened to them is not relevant and that what happened wasn't that bad, and now that he can behave, he will be rewarded.

We need to bring justice back for these victims and their families. We need to move Paul Bernardo back to maximum security where he belongs.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Penner.

We'll go to whoever would like to go next, please.

[Tennille Chwalczuk, As an Individual]

Good afternoon, Chair and honourable members.

I met Kristen French when I was four years old, and we were instantly best friends. At that time, 31 years ago, our city had crime, but we still felt safe.

The day Kristen was taken will be a moment frozen in time, filled with terror and pain that to this day never leaves me. From the initial phone calls about whether we had seen her to combing the streets searching for her, it was a trauma I have never healed from.

The subsequent two-week search was agonizing as we watched failed lead after lead announced and watched the hours pass into days, knowing the outcome was grim. No one felt safe at any time. Life would never be the same.

After two weeks of a living hell and realizing that she was truly gone forever, the new nightmare began. It was a trial that seemed to take forever and was filled with errors, and a deal with the devil to send Paul Bernardo to a maximum security prison.

Nine counts are what he was given, and 25 years with no parole, yet it didn't seem even close to what he deserved.

At the parole hearing in 2018, the hearing officer stated to Paul Bernardo, “Your understanding and insight remains limited”, and added, “It was evident today that you continue to exhibit behaviours that are counterproductive to the development of insight.”

How is it possible that there is such a drastic change in just four months, from 30-plus years of this type of behaviour to now showing full signs of collaboration and willingness to change? Perhaps a master manipulator and psychopath such as he has a plan to secure more rights and freedoms that he will access at a medium-security facility.

While I understand the comment made at the live press conference delivered by Anne Kelly that the CSC needs to be able to manage these dangerous offenders on the inside, my question is, at what cost?

If it is not psychologically possible for a sadistic psychopath to ever truly change, why should he receive the same privileges offered to the other offenders who actively work towards rehabilitation? I do understand he has rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but it is beyond frustrating to witness him being relocated to a medium security prison.

When the CSC moved Bernardo without proper communication and respect to the victims' families, this actually created a new trauma. It literally stunned not only the families and the friends of the victims, but also the entire community. It caused pure rage, doubt and disturbance all over again, especially with no warning. There was no time to process, to react or to refute. It also brought with it a renewed fear for the public's safety.

The response from Anne Kelly was that they will have more proactive and meaningful discussions with the victims' families. That reply brought more anger and anguish, as the families and friends were left in that moment to do nothing but watch.

I am here to be a voice that stands up for Kristen. One of the many concerns I have is this: Are the victims' rights respected at all in these decisions?

After 31 years, I can say that I have not healed from the horrifying and monstrous loss of Kristen French. There will never be full closure. It changed me forever. It changed who I was and who I became. It made the world around us a darker place.

Knowing that she and his other victims will never get the opportunity to live the life and the dreams they should have has left a profound sadness in our community. All I can do is continue to be her best friend and offer my voice to fight for justice and the rights of the victims of Paul Bernardo to prevent future tragedies.

I plead that you will reconsider your decision and keep dangerous criminals of his calibre where they belong: in a maximum security prison for their entire sentence, for the well-being of our society and out of respect for the victims.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Chwalczuk.

Ms. Murray, go ahead, please.

[Laura Murray, As an Individual]

Thank you, honourable chair and members.

There were issues with my microphone earlier. If you're having trouble hearing me, please feel free to interrupt me, and I will use Marcia or Tennille's microphone. However, it seems everything is okay, so I'll go ahead.

Thank you for having me. For me, it's nearly impossible to fully express the impact Paul Bernardo and his crimes have [Technical difficulty—Editor]. For us as teenagers, dealing with the loss of our best friend Kristen French in such a brutal way was insurmountable and something we have never fully recovered from. At the time, trying to process such horrific events left us feeling immeasurable grief, sadness, anger, confusion and fear, in addition to the loss of our sense of safety and security.

The list of Bernardo's victims, however, is extensive. There are the many other women who were directly brutalized by him, the parents who lived in terror that their own child would be the next victim, and the loved ones who watched helplessly as people they loved were traumatized. There were also the first responders who searched and collected evidence from crime scenes, and even the legal personnel, including witnesses and jurors, who had to witness the horrifying images of these crimes on videotapes.

In the 31 years since then, many of these individuals, including us, have developed ongoing mental health issues, including post-traumatic stress disorder, severe anxiety, depression and substance abuse. Some people have also had difficulty forming healthy and secure relationships with their friends and partners, and they have struggled to raise their own children without the fear and hypervigilance that conditioned us.

When Bernardo was finally incarcerated and labelled a dangerous offender, I think we all felt some sense of relief, some sense that we could begin to move on from the nightmare. However, almost every year since his capture and incarceration, many of Bernardo's victims, along with their families and friends, have been retraumatized by the re-emergence of his name in the news, which inevitably comes with the rehashing of the brutality of his crimes. For many of these people, retraumatization involves terrible visual and emotional flashbacks, recurring nightmares, dissociation from their lives and loved ones, and severe anxiety and depression.

The latest news of his transfer to a medium-security prison was no exception. We are aware that there are protocols and guidelines for determining the classification and transfer of prisoners. However, one thing was blatantly missing: the careful and real consideration of the impact this transfer would have on all the people who have been directly affected by Bernardo's crimes. It genuinely appears to us that no one involved in this process stopped to consider, even for a moment, the requests, wishes or feelings of those people. Even the victims' families were not informed of his move until after it had already been completed.

Therefore, we are here to demand that the rights of his many victims be considered and respected now and moving forward. We are here to demand that decisions like this transfer, and any decisions that have the potential to retraumatize victims, cannot and will not happen in the future without careful and thoughtful consideration of these victims' rights.

It is also obvious to us that no consideration was given to Bernardo's original sentencing or designation as a dangerous offender in the determination of his prison security classification. Based on his crimes and behaviour, Bernardo was originally sentenced to 25 years in a maximum security institution, the harshest punishment possible and one—I think we can all agree—that at the time took well into account the rights of his victims and their families.

However, his most recent parole board hearing in 2021 found that he still displayed no remorse, no empathy and no insight into his crimes. Research shows that as a sadistic sexual psychopath, he likely never will. Therefore, it should follow that his original sentence should still stand. Bernardo is not an average prisoner who may be rehabilitated through programs and support. He should therefore be managed by his initial sentence. Bernardo should be moved back to a maximum security prison to honour the original sentence, which so clearly put the rights of his victims in high regard.

Going forward, any possible decisions regarding his incarceration should involve consideration of all these factors: his initial sentence, his dangerous offender designation and—perhaps most importantly—clear and comprehensive communication with his victims and their families. We can do better for his many victims, and we must.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Murray.

We'll move into questions now.

We're going to start with Mr. Baldinelli for six minutes.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Specifically to Ms. Penner, Ms. Murray and Ms. Chwalczuk, thank you for sharing your stories. I can only imagine how difficult this was for you and how difficult it must have been when you heard of the transfer decision that was made. It must be like a nightmare that you can never escape from, and that has been reflected in the comments that you have made.

First of all, if I could, I'll pose this question to all three. What was your reaction when you heard the news about the government transferring Paul Bernardo from a maximum to a medium security prison?

Ms. Chwalczuk, for example, in your comments you said that it created a new sense of trauma under a magnified light. I was hoping that you could just expand on that.

All three witnesses could comment.

[Tennille Chwalczuk]

Absolutely. In that moment of sitting in front of the TV and realizing that there was nothing.... There was no warning. There was just nothing but absolute fear and anguish and tears and rage. Everything that we thought, that if he stayed in maximum, we might have some sort of peace of mind inside, knowing he was where he belonged forever, and then knowing in that moment that it was over.... It's so hard to put into words. It was just absolute anguish.

[Marcia Penner]

For me, there were a number of emotions. Everything resurfaced and brought us back to when we were 16 years old and when Kristen was taken so horribly away from us. It left us in despair.

There was feeling of hopelessness and injustice. We were feeling like our justice system had failed us again. How something like this could take place with someone as purely evil as Paul Bernardo.... I understand that there are rules in place and that there are criteria that have to be followed. I also know that there are exceptions to those rules.

It brought forth a horrible sense of trauma and unsettlement. We felt unsafe again, and it is a feeling that is very hard to describe, but one that I don't wish on anybody.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Go ahead, Ms. Murray.

[Laura Murray]

Thank you.

As I said in my statement, many other victims, I'm sure, other than ourselves, have developed many different mental health issues. For myself personally, I have complex post-traumatic stress disorder, so when Marcia called me to tell me, it really did feel like I was taken back to that moment in time, and I emotionally felt what I had felt when it was initially happening.

That is what happens when you have a flashback. Essentially, it was like being 15 or 16 years old again and hearing about the moment when she was taken from us, feeling how we felt when we were told she had been found. It really takes you back to that and it pulls out all of those emotions that you try to suppress. It happens every single time, every time his name is brought up in the media. This is really the experience for most of us. It's a retraumatization; it brings us right back to that same moment, and we experience the feelings all over again.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Murray.

I'll pose this question to all of you.

During the period of incarceration of Mr. Bernardo and then when the transfer decision was made, did you feel heard or empowered at all by the Correctional Service of Canada or the federal government throughout this process? Have your views been listened to? Have they been taken into consideration? Have you had an avenue to share your concerns?

We'll start with Ms. Penner.

[Marcia Penner]

Thank you.

I feel like I had an opportunity to approach the CSC and Ms. Anne Kelly, but unfortunately I don't feel that I was heard at all.

I had resources, as I mentioned in my address. Dr. Book was very kind in providing a meta-analysis as well as a letter for us. We gave her ample examples of why such a move was not conducive to anybody—the victims, the families, the public society....

I do not believe that we have been heard. I do appreciate Mr. Baldinelli. I reached out to you and, quite frankly, you are the only one who has heard us and taken any action in this to do the right thing and to right this horrible wrong.

In short, that is my answer.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Murray, please comment.

[Laura Murray]

Essentially, the three of us tend to work as a unit, and so we did attack this at the same time together. Further to Marcia's comment, I did send some emails myself independently. I just sent one to Prime Minister Trudeau's office indicating who I was, what the situation was, and how we were feeling, and I did not receive a response...or I think I did. It was a general response, so I'm definitely not feeling heard in that way at all.

As Marcia said, we did receive a response to our email to Anne Kelly. We were not satisfied with that response, but we did receive one.

As for you, Mr. Baldinelli, you have been wonderful. Mr. Poilievre has taken a wonderful interest in this, and I will say personally that when the three of us were in Ottawa, we really felt heard. He gave us his undivided attention and very much listened and seemed to hear what we were saying, while we were speaking, so we really appreciated that. There have been other members of the Conservative Party—Michelle Ferreri. I have been corresponding with her quite a bit through emails. She is a wonderful advocate. She listens to us. She hears our concerns. I really wanted to say thank you to those individuals as well.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Ms. Chwalczuk, could you comment? Then I think my time is done.

[Tennille Chwalczuk]

Thank you.

They have both touched upon how we have collaborated as a team on all of this. I did as well send communication through to the Liberals, with no response as well. I would also like to say thank you to Mr. Poilievre and to thank you for being the driving person behind us, the person who is actually listening with your heart and trying to get us somewhere. That means the world to all three of us.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

We're going to move on to Mr. Schiefke now for six minutes, please.