Evidence of meeting #87 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was families.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tim Danson  Lawyer and Legal Counsel for the French and Mahaffy Families, As an Individual

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to Meeting number 87 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. Feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to interpreters and cause serious injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to a microphone. We therefore ask all participants to exercise a high degree of caution when handling the earpieces, especially when your microphone or your neighbour's microphone is turned on.

All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 23, 2023, the committee resumes its study of the rights of victims, reclassification and the transfer of federal offenders.

I would like now to welcome our witness for today by video conference. We have Mr. Tim Danson, lawyer and legal counsel for the French and Mahaffy families.

Welcome, Mr. Danson. It's great to see you here.

11 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Excuse me, Mr. Chair.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

We will go right into questioning. The first question is—

11 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask something, if I may.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

I'm sorry. It's only Monday, Mr. Danson. Please bear with me.

11 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

First of all, thank you for welcoming me to the committee today, where I'm pleased to replace Ms. Michaud, who is stuck in her riding.

I wanted to know if the sound checks were done successfully for the witness appearing by videoconference.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Yes.

11 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Mr. Danson, I pre-authorized 10 minutes for your opening remarks today, so if you want to start now, it would be appreciated.

Thank you.

11 a.m.

Tim Danson Lawyer and Legal Counsel for the French and Mahaffy Families, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before this committee today on behalf of the families of Kristen French and Leslie Mahaffy, whom I have had the honour and privilege to represent for the past 30 years. Appearing in public to speak to these issues is simply too painful and emotional for the families, and they have asked me to speak on their behalf.

My representation of the families over the past 30 years informs the opinions that I'm going to share with you today. This includes guiding them through the criminal justice system, Bernardo's trial, and battling the media and certain members of the public, who unsuccessfully tried to gain access to the Bernardo-Homolka videotapes.

This was an enormous undertaking, which itself included the need for me to painstakingly review the videotapes and prepare a chart describing every frame of the videotapes and the corresponding words. This fact alone is perhaps the most significant fact that will inform some of the opinions I give today and perhaps the answers to some of your questions, because that was a very difficult process, reviewing the videotapes. This was necessary for the particular argument that we advanced at the time of the videotape motion.

We were also involved in the plea resolution involving Karla Homolka and made efforts to have Karla Homolka's plea resolution set aside, because we believed that she breached it. We dealt with a little-known potential plea bargain for Paul Bernardo to second-degree murder, which we stopped, even though it would have avoided the trial altogether and avoided the excruciating videotape issue.

We were involved in the successful gating application to keep Karla Homolka in jail for her entire 12-year sentence. We went to Joliette, Quebec, at the conclusion of her sentence, to impose post-sentence conditions on Karla Homolka, pursuant to sections 810.1 and 810.2 of the Criminal Code. During that particular process, Karla Homolka chose to stare me down in court, and I saw for myself the evilness in her eyes 12 years later, which was identical to what I saw in the videotapes.

We were involved in the appeal process. We were involved in the bone-chilling discussions we had after Bernardo was convicted and had exhausted all of his appeal routes, which led us to obtain an order to destroy the videotapes, the crime scene pictures, the autopsy photographs and the steel circular saw that he used to dismember Leslie Mahaffy. We had everything destroyed.

Now we're involved in Mr. Bernardo's parole hearings. We're currently before the Supreme Court of Canada, with the assistance of the Toronto Police Association, on a leave application regarding the families' Access to Information Act request for the records of Paul Bernardo and other offenders who murdered police officers, which is what they rely upon to persuade the Parole Board to grant them parole and what Correctional Service Canada and the Parole Board need to discharge their legislative public safety mandate.

As I said just a moment ago, all of this will inform what I have to share with you this morning, but I know this. On these issues, the public interest and the victims' interests are fully aligned—but for the grace of God go I.

With the exception of a public loonie campaign 30 years ago, which I had nothing to do with, all of my work for the families has been and continues to be pro bono. Helping these families free of charge is a far greater reward than all the money in the world.

The families wanted me to share a number of points with you.

First, all they seek is justice. They don't seek revenge. They don't seek retribution. They accept that Paul Bernardo was entitled to full constitutional protections—the right to be presumed innocent, the right to a fair trial—and he got both. They accept that Mr. Bernardo is entitled to humane treatment in jail and that he has the right to seek release on parole.

The question, though, that must be answered is this: What is justice for a convicted sadistic sexual psychopath who committed the most unspeakable crimes known to humankind and who was sentenced to life in prison and, additionally, was designated a dangerous offender? He is an offender who, after 30 years in prison, right up to his transfer—as found by two different panels of the Parole Board—had no remorse, no empathy, no insight, and was not treatable.

I wish all of you could see—and this is part of our application before the Supreme Court of Canada—or even listen to the audio recording of Paul Bernardo's testimony. It would go a long way toward people understanding who this person is.

In designating Paul Bernardo as a dangerous offender, the learned trial judge, who was one of the most distinguished and experienced judges in the country, Associate Chief Justice LeSage—as he was then; he later became our chief justice—recounting the unspeakable, sadistic brutality Bernardo inflicted on two innocent, defenceless teenage girls and so many others, said this to Mr. Bernardo: “You require [jail], in my view, for the rest of your natural life.... You are sexually sadistic psychopath. The likelihood of you being treated is remote in the extreme.”

For offenders like Paul Bernardo, the overarching principle must be maximum punishment in a maximum-security penitentiary. The Supreme Court of Canada tells us that sentencing is the means by which society communicates its moral values. These types of offenders can still obtain the benefit of programs offered in maximum-security federal institutions. They are still entitled to regular parole hearings, but never should such an individual be rewarded with a transfer from maximum security to medium security, when at the time of the transfer, the offender still shows no remorse, no empathy and no insight into his crimes. The medical evidence was that he was beyond treatment.

It sends the wrong message. It sanitizes the full brutality of his unspeakable crimes. It's no answer that the perimeter security is the same as maximum security, that medium security offers better treatment programs for a person who cannot realistically be treated, or that by giving him more freedoms and privileges in medium security, he might be more manageable.

Offenders like Paul Bernardo, who commit the most unspeakable crimes known to humankind, must receive the most severe sentence our legal system permits. That means spending the rest of their natural lives in a maximum-security institution.

Leslie Mahaffy and Kristen French took their last breaths in utter horror at the hands of Paul Bernardo. Upon conviction, the only rights he has left are to remain alive—we don't have capital punishment and I don't believe in capital punishment, but that's one right he has—and to spend the rest of his life, humanely, in a maximum-security federal penitentiary.

The second point the families wanted me to bring to your attention is this. They have this question. Upon Mr. Bernardo's transfer, the Prime Minister of Canada, the then minister responsible and, I believe, other political leaders, properly described the transfer as “both shocking and incomprehensible”. Those are not my words nor the family's words, but the words of the Prime Minister and the minister.

Canadians were instinctively outraged. It offended all ethical and moral standards. It was wrong. Even if Correctional Service Canada followed the rules—which I have a lot of issues with but assuming it complied with all the rules and all the laws—this is the question the families have: How can something that is “shocking and incomprehensible” remain the law of this great country? If it's “shocking and incomprehensible”, then change the laws.

This is exactly what leads to public cynicism and disrespect for the administration of justice and the rule of law.

I will never forget, after the first day of argument on the videotape issue, a discussion I had with Donna French. The courtroom was packed and there was an army of media lawyers. Everybody was robed up; it was very official. There were motion records, factums and endless books of authority piled on counsel's tables, yet Donna French cut through all of this and said to me that she didn't understand, because we have a right to protect the dignity and memory of her daughter. She said that some things are right and some things are wrong, and this was wrong.

She was right, and this equally applies to Paul Bernardo's transfer. It was wrong.

This takes me to the families' third point.

In practice—and I've been doing this for 43 years—the system treats most offenders the same. We submit to you that you cannot treat offenders who receive fixed sentences the same way you treat offenders who receive life sentences or an indeterminate sentence, as was Bernardo's case because of his dangerous offender designation. There is no cure for psychopathy or worse—for sadistic sexual psychopathy. That is a medical fact.

If the public knew that there were tough but just laws for Canada's most dangerous offenders, they would embrace the full panoply of treatment and rehabilitation programs for the overwhelming majority of federal inmates.

These kinds of one-size-fits-all criteria—mechanically checking the boxes—cannot apply to Canada's most dangerous offenders. There must be a separate law for these people. Only in this way will Canadians have confidence in our justice system and embrace treatment programs for the vast majority of offenders.

The fourth point they wanted me to communicate to you is this: Reliance on section 28 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act and the requirement that the choice of penitentiary must be the “least restrictive” for offenders is completely misplaced. This is appropriate for the vast majority of offenders who serve fixed sentences, but it is not appropriate for people serving life sentences for murder, or for people who have indeterminate sentences because they've been declared dangerous offenders. This distorts the sentence itself by substituting punishment for leniency. This may be better for a parole board than for administrative decisions. However, in my experience, this least restrictive principle has been more aptly applied to NCR offenders.

The fifth point they wanted me to communicate to you is this: One of the justifications for Paul Bernardo's transfer was that he did not represent a threat of attacks on prison guards or other inmates. This cannot be a criterion for offenders like Paul Bernardo. These types of sex offenders are cowards. Paul Bernardo is a coward. He would never attack a prison guard or another inmate. He would only attack innocent, defenceless, vulnerable teenage girls and young women. This criterion must be eliminated for offenders like Paul Bernardo.

The sixth point—

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Mr. Danson, could I stop you there?

We're much over the 10-minute allotment I allowed you. I don't want to cut short some people's question time. I'm sure they're going to get to some of the information you're addressing.

11:10 a.m.

Lawyer and Legal Counsel for the French and Mahaffy Families, As an Individual

Tim Danson

No problem.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

I have a point of order.

If Mr. Danson is getting to his final point, perhaps there's unanimous consent to let him finish.

11:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Thank you.

Mr. Danson, the committee would like to see you continue, so let's continue.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Lawyer and Legal Counsel for the French and Mahaffy Families, As an Individual

Tim Danson

Okay. I'll do one more point and leave the last two for questions. I'll finish this last one, because it deals directly with a criticism we have with respect to justifying the transfer of Mr. Bernardo on the basis of his recent full integration with other offenders on his range.

This justification is stunningly weak and completely detached from the sheer sadistic brutality of his crimes. That range in maximum security is very limited. Further—and I think everyone on the committee knows this—the hallmark of psychopathy is an offender being cunning, deceptive, manipulative, a liar, callous, glib, grandiose, narcissistic and often intelligent. This was the expert evidence before Associate Chief Justice LeSage at the time of the trial and the dangerous offender application, and this was the evidence before the Parole Board. These types of offenders learn how to manipulate the system and the various tests being applied to them, and they learn from test to test. Therefore, there has to be a different criterion applied to these individuals.

Thank you for the extra time. I'll be happy to take your questions.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

Thank you, Mr. Danson.

We're going to start questions with Mr. Shipley for six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Danson, for being here today. Thank you for your patience as we tried to get you scheduled in last week and today. Thank you for all the work you've done for the families, especially—as we're hearing this morning—since it's all been pro bono. Good for you. I'm sure there have been some very trying times, as you mentioned.

Mr. Danson, on behalf of the French and Mahaffy families, you rejected the findings of the report on Paul Bernardo's transfer. You said, “We believe that Paul Bernardo should be in maximum security prison”, and that, even if the transfer was done in accordance with all applicable laws and policies, those laws need to change.

Can you expand on why you reject the findings of the report on Bernardo's—

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

I have to stop you there, Mr. Shipley.

We have to suspend for one minute, Mr. Danson. We seem to be having an issue with our communication.

11:18 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald

We'll continue. I'll just remind everyone to keep their earpieces away from their microphones when speaking.

I'm going to restart Mr. Shipley's time.

You have six minutes, Mr. Shipley.

Thank you, Mr. Danson, for your patience.

11:18 a.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Danson, thank you.

I'm sorry, interpreters, about that loud noise. It was loud out here too. I'm not sure what that was.

Mr. Danson, in order to save some time, I won't go back through everything I was saying exactly. I'll just paraphrase it into something shorter.

Can you expand on why you reject the findings of the report on Bernardo's transfer, and why you believe Paul Bernardo should be in a maximum-security prison for the rest of his life?

11:18 a.m.

Lawyer and Legal Counsel for the French and Mahaffy Families, As an Individual

Tim Danson

The criteria that they use, notwithstanding words to the contrary, do not differentiate between these kinds of offenders—cases of someone like Paul Bernardo, which are very fact-specific—and the overwhelming majority of offenders. I think there have to be entirely different legislative and regulatory criteria for these individuals.

As I said in my opening, we must eliminate, for these types of offenders, the notion that the penitentiary sentence has to be the least restrictive. That is inconsistent with the sentencing principles, and it's inconsistent with what the trial judge, the sentencing judge, had to say about Mr. Bernardo.

Then, as I said a moment ago, on this criterion that because he's not representing a threat to the prison guards and other inmates that's a justification for transferring him to medium-security, or that he had fully integrated into a particular range that is very small, there just has to be a fundamental shift in establishing a separate criterion for Canada's most dangerous offenders. Don't put them in the mix of a criterion that applies to the overwhelming majority of offenders.

As I said, when you do that.... This is one bit of information that I think I can impart to the committee with my 43 years of experience: If you do that, if the public knows that these types of offenders are being dealt with properly, then there will be an enormous view of the public to embrace all of the rehabilitation programs and assistance for offenders to make them productive when they eventually get out, but you can't apply that to people like Paul Bernardo.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

Thank you.

Building on that answer, Mr. Danson, in your response to Correctional Service of Canada's report, you stated, and I'll quote once again, “CSC’s heavy reliance on s. 28 of the CCRA and the requirement that the choice of penitentiary, must be the 'least restrictive' for the offender, is misplaced.”

Can you describe how the least restrictive principle being applied with a one-size-fits-all criterion is dangerous for public safety and revictimizing for victims and their families?

11:20 a.m.

Lawyer and Legal Counsel for the French and Mahaffy Families, As an Individual

Tim Danson

It's contrary to the facts. It's contrary to the facts that apply to this particular offender and similarly situated offenders.

As I said, the least restrictive test is what really had currency with respect to offenders who were found not criminally responsible. It just doesn't apply to these kinds of offenders. As I say, it's fine if you apply it to the majority of offenders who have fixed sentences. They're going to get out regardless, but it just has no application and it's completely disconnected from the punishment principles of sentencing.

If one looks at section 718 of the Criminal Code, in a case like Paul Bernardo, the pre-eminent principle is punishment, and this is completely inconsistent with those sentencing principles. It has to be changed.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

Thank you.

You spoke about the need for a different criterion to be applied to offenders who exhibit hallmarks of psychopathy. Can you expand on how an offender like Bernardo may be able to manipulate the test being applied to him to be granted a lower security classification?