Public Safety Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[Matthew Hipwell]

That depends on many factors. It depends on what the firearm is, that individual's knowledge and the tools they have at their hand. As society changes and with the availability of technology through the Internet and simple Google searches, it makes some people become gunsmiths by Google, much as you hear of doctors by Google today.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Sorry, maybe I'll be a little clearer on that. Excuse me, I'm not a gun owner, so I do not profess to be an expert in this whatsoever and that's why we're here, to try to learn.

Following up on that last question, we have heard a narrative that legally obtained high-capacity magazines are an issue in Canada. Could you tell me how easy it is for a criminal to modify magazines to make them high capacity?

[Matthew Hipwell]

Just to pre-empt that, high-capacity magazines were banned back in 1993, which was one of the points of that CTV news broadcast, namely that high-capacity magazines are still readily available.

Getting back to modifications, it all depends on how that magazine was modified as to the ease and then, obviously, that is a criminal offence in itself for those parties. Some can be done easily, some cannot, much like many other tasks.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Hipwell.

I'll now switch over to Chief Inspector Bertrand.

Mr. Bertrand, I'd first like to thank you for your service. How many of the smuggled firearms that you find in Montreal are smuggled across the U.S. border versus domestically sourced?

[David Bertrand]

According to our estimates, approximately 80% of the illegal weapons we seize have crossed the border from the United States.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that.

Do you think a handgun ban would be effective or enforceable in your city?

[David Bertrand]

We feel that is the right direction, yes. Basically, we want to ban the most widely used weapons. We often talk about sticking to the evidence and relying on the information we're given. Currently, the weapons most commonly used to commit crimes are handguns. So any ban in the future should target handguns.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'll give my remaining time over to Mr. Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Hipwell, in your considerable experience in law enforcement and now in the firearms industry—you can just make this anecdotal if you don't have empirical evidence—what percentage of those firearms being used by criminals were legally obtained as opposed to ones that came across the border illegally?

[Matthew Hipwell]

I don't have anything specific from my time in law enforcement, but listening to what my colleague just said about 80% being smuggled, it makes one wonder how a handgun ban would be effective if 80% of the firearms seized were smuggled illegally into the country to start with.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Of the individuals who you do business with, the firearms owners who you know of, are you aware of any—and if so, how many—who have been involved in any type of illegal firearms crimes, such as murder or other firearms-related offences?

[Matthew Hipwell]

Off the top of my head, I'm not aware of any who I have personally dealt with.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

In your estimation, would you say that the root causes of firearms crime would be illegal smuggling, criminal activity and gang violence, or would think it would be law-abiding firearms owners?

[Matthew Hipwell]

I would say that the root cause is coming from the gang side, the criminal activity, not the legal firearms owner.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Do you believe that banning and otherwise regulating already highly regulated firearms owners will see any significant reduction in gun violence in Canada?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Please give a 10-second response. Sorry. We're out of time.

[Matthew Hipwell]

Okay. I'm sorry about that.

Quite simply, no: History is starting to show that with the legislation that's already in place and how ineffective it's been. That's why I'm saying get to the root cause of the issues, not the objects that we're dealing with, like the border security and the gangs themselves as an organization.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Zuberi, it's over to you for six minutes, please.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you to all the witnesses for being with us today.

I would like to ask Mr. Bertrand a few questions.

In your testimony, you said there was a sense of impunity among people who misused firearms in Montreal. You were also quoted in an October 2021 article in the Montreal Gazette, where you said there was also a sense of impunity among youth in Montreal.

How do you explain that sense of impunity when it comes to firearms and the misuse of firearms?

[David Bertrand]

Yes, that's what we've been noticing for three years already: a strong sense of impunity and the trivialization of firearms usage. In other words, people no longer fear being seen with guns on social media or walking around with guns.

We are more and more regularly seeing people with crime backgrounds starting over and making a show of force on social media. We've had investigations into videos where six, seven, eight guns were on display and ultimately the investigation found that they were real guns. Obviously, there is a prevailing sense of impunity because people are no longer afraid to be seen with firearms.

In the past, when a crime was committed, the perpetrator would leave the gun at the scene. Remember, that was what people did in recent years. Why did they do it? To avoid being caught with the weapon after the crime was committed. Now what we are seeing more and more is people are not leaving the gun at the scene of the crime. The fear or dread of being caught with the gun after a crime is no longer there.

We also see it when we stop vehicles. Back then, this is a few years ago, when criminals were stopped, we would often find a single firearm inside the vehicle; now we often find two or three.

There is clearly a sense of impunity. As to where it comes from, there are several reasons for it. First, gun usage has been trivialized. People say that they use the gun to protect themselves. According to them, if they have a gun to protect themselves, it's no longer serious in the eyes of the law. It's a perceived notion in the community. When we talk about the sense of impunity, it's still a perceived notion among individuals walking around with a gun.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I have a second question for you, then I will give the rest of my time to my colleague Mr. Noormohamed.

The October 2021 article also quotes your comments about gun prices. You stated that gun prices had nevertheless gone up in Montreal.

Can you explain this, please?

[David Bertrand]

We've tried to explain this phenomenon in several ways. Over the past few years, prices have tripled, and even quadrupled. Guns that were selling for $1,500 five or six years ago are now selling for around $5,000 or $6,000. That's a huge increase. Consequently, because guns are now worth $5,000, they are no longer left at the scene of a crime.

The traditional supply and demand system does not apply to firearms. Despite the fact that the supply is there, prices continue to rise. What happens is that a lot of intermediaries get involved in the the resale of firearms, and each one profits from the transaction. As you know, we buy firearms the same way we buy drugs, to build cases. We then find that a great number of intermediaries are involved in each transaction. Each time, the sale puts the individual at risk, so they take a cut accordingly. That's what drives prices up.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Bertrand.

I am giving the rest of my time to my colleague Mr. Noormohamed.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Zuberi.

I'll keep my questions very brief.

Mr. Hipwell, thank you for joining us. I'd like you to talk to us about the WK180, which you designed and built with Kodiak Defence. Gun enthusiasts have said this basically gives people access to the AR class platform, AR being the AR-15, but a non-restricted version. The big plus with the WK180C is access to many of the AR platform's aftermarket parts.

Why would you want to put into the hands of people a weapon that is effectively the non-restricted version of an AR-15-type semi-automatic, centrefire rifle?

[Matthew Hipwell]

This rifle is a non-restricted platform. It conforms with the sport shooting market and with varmint hunters' and many shooters' requirements in Canada.