Public Safety Committee on Feb. 26th, 2024

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'll leave it there and just thank everyone for coming.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

Ms. O'Connell, go ahead, please.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all for being here.

It struck me in the testimony here today how important the auto theft summit was in terms of hearing the issues that other members are experiencing all in that room together. Even I had heard from organizations—Mr. Vording, you mentioned some additional information from partners that was incredibly helpful—and all echoed the comments about this not being a one-size-fits-all solution. We need partners at the table.

Mr. Vording, I'll start with you. This is following up on Mr. Lloyd's comments. We have similar statistics, that 50% or 60% of the cars that are stolen leave, but that means 40% to 50% actually stay in Canada. The issue around revinning is actually provincial. How do we as a federal government try to bring together provincial governments on this issue? What would you say is a gap? What's something that perhaps we could help with to close some of those gaps?

As you acknowledged in your example, often the moving between provinces and territories might be the way in which this revinning is able to happen.

[Shawn Vording]

I would suggest that one of the largest issues right now, or one of the biggest things that could be done to benefit the situation, is a better flow of data. Right now a time lag exists between vehicles that are known to be on the road in one jurisdiction that move into another jurisdiction for an out-of-province inspection. Based on the metrics that we see, a majority of the cloned VINs are moving provinces. There is a loophole in the registration system at the provincial level that's allowing this to happen.

How is that prevented? It's prevented through providing quicker access to data. It's done through collaboration, whether that's at the provincial level or at the federal level, so that jurisdictions have better access to what is supposed to be on the road and where. That's versus this loophole right now, where a vehicle that is in a driveway in Ontario or in a dealership lot in Ontario is currently being bought as an out-of-province vehicle.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

Do licence plate renewals have anything to do with this? Ontario just announced that there will no longer be an automatic renewal. I'm genuinely curious about it. When I first read that story, I thought, does this help or hurt the issue in terms of tracking? At least when you renew your licence plate, you also have to verify your VIN and ownership. I don't know.

Have you looked at this at all? Is this a concern or a challenge, or is it not really an issue in terms of the revinning?

[Shawn Vording]

It's an interesting data point. There is value in that data point. In Ontario specifically, the number of people who are actually going and renewing their licence plates has been low to begin with since the changes were implemented. There are much better data points. For instance, Carfax has access to billions of vehicle service records in Canada. The service is more timely. You get your oil changed more often than you get your licence plate renewed. There are much better data points that are more timely than licence plate renewals.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Perfect. Thank you.

Ms. Power, you spoke about the export data in advance for shipping. I heard this at the summit as well in terms of the U.S. I'm curious to know how they do it differently from Canada. What's something that could be implemented? How are they able to do that and coordinate with freight, etc., which, again, might fall under some provincial jurisdiction? What is the standardized process that we should be looking at?

[Celyeste Power]

I will make a quick comment. Then, if you don't mind, Mr. Chair, I will ask my colleague from Équité to jump in here, as well.

Obviously, each piece of this is important to the auto theft crisis, but we feel that sharing information and implementing the 72-hour rule at the border would be extremely impactful in cutting down auto thefts.

I'll ask my colleague Terri to speak about how that works in the U.S.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

[Terri O'Brien]

My colleague Ms. Power mentioned that we have been recommending the 72-hour rule, wherein the vehicle has to be presented 72 hours in advance, prior to export.

Another key control U.S. Customs and Border Protection has is that the shipping manifest cannot be amended post-departure. In Canada, in some of the investigations we participate in, we'll see that a container will be listed with a load of dishwashers, for example, and then get changed to vehicles after the fact.

I will share that we work closely with the NICB in the U.S., which I spoke about. The U.S. is experiencing auto theft to a degree similar to Canada. Last year, they lost one million vehicles in the U.S., and we lost about 100,000 in Canada. They're 10 times our population. Similarly, the state of California lost 100,000 vehicles. They are 38 million people, so it's akin to the population in Canada. Most recently, in sharing information with our U.S. counterparts, we learned the eastern ports of Baltimore and New Jersey are starting to see increases in the export of stolen vehicles as well to some of the illegal trade routes across the Atlantic that we also experience.

The U.S. is in a similar place on auto theft.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you for that info. I think it also goes to the point that investments in organized crime and cuts in officers specifically around organized crime are problems, because that seems to be a real driver.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Ms. Michaud, go ahead, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank the witnesses for being here.

I have been eagerly awaiting this study. On October 23, I proposed a motion that the committee study this important topic. In the meantime, other parties have talked about it, which is great. What's important is that we talk about it.

The government hosted the National Summit on Combatting Auto Theft, which I attended, and I saw a few of you there as well. It's important to bring everyone together and start the discussion. However, I am wondering about the government's co-operation with organizations such as yours, both before and after the summit was held. The government said that there would be an action plan afterwards. Announcements were made on the margins of the summit, when we hadn't actually heard from all of the day's speakers and stakeholders. I would like to hear your comments on the announcements that were made and on the investments.

This seems to have been the most effective summit we've had so far, since a few days later, there was a search of 26 containers at the Port of Montreal. They contained 54 stolen vehicles. That was done by the police. We assumed that those discussions must have led to something, although I imagine that the operation had already been planned.

I'd like to start with you, Ms. O'Brien.

I know that the Équité Association is working with the joint squad set up by the Sûreté du Québec. Several Quebec municipalities were also involved, including the police services of Terrebonne, Blainville, Montreal, Longueuil and Châteaugay, as well as the RCMP and the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA.

First, explain to me briefly what the Équité Association does and what positive effects the co-operation with the joint squad in Quebec has had.

Second, what do you think about the announcements that have been made by the government, particularly by the Minister of Justice regarding possible amendments to the Criminal Code and by Minister Champagne regarding a possible ban on the import, sale and use of devices that are used to detect key fob signals?

I have asked a lot of questions, so I will give you the floor. Feel free to take the time you need.

[Terri O'Brien]

Thank you very much. Thank you for your participation and for bringing this forward at committee as well. I really appreciate it.

We have been very heartened at Équité Association by all of the recent announcements and partnerships, in particular, by the actions that have come out of the summit. They have really started to make meaningful headway against auto theft.

In terms of the most recent announcement of $15 million for law enforcement and collaboration, particularly between the SQ, Montreal police services and CBSA, our team works quite closely with them, particularly at the port of Montreal, so that is an excellent announcement. We've participated in project research in Quebec that has been ongoing for the past year, in effect acting as a Quebec auto theft team, and have made meaningful headway in terms of vehicle recoveries and stemming the flow of funds into organized crime.

The previous announcement of $28 million for CBSA was very encouraging. We've had continued and increased collaboration with President O'Gorman and the team at CBSA. They've been fantastic partners for many years. This increased funding and collaboration has been really welcome news.

The port operations, particularly at the port of Montreal—but we also operate at the port of Halifax—have been running at a very increased rate for months. They started several months prior to the summit but are continuing post-summit as well, which has been fantastic.

The RCMP partnership was announced at the summit by Commissioner Duheme; however, the RCMP has since followed through with uploading our CPIC or stolen vehicle data from Canada to Interpol. Équité Association was designated as the non-law enforcement repatriation agency in Canada, and we're already seeing over 150 stolen vehicles identified. We are working to repatriate those vehicles to the rightful owners.

The OPP auto theft team has also been quite active. It is at the borders in both Ontario and Quebec, working collaboratively with the SQ, Montreal police, Toronto police, CBSA and us. That work has been continuing as well. There was also a large Ontario announcement recently as well.

I think I hit all of your announcements. Did you want me to speak a bit about Minister Champagne's devices, or was that sufficient?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Yes, absolutely. I would like to hear your comments on Minister Champagne's announcement, because everything you are telling us seems quite positive.

However, the numbers are quite alarming. It's a nationwide scourge. Squads may be set up and the police may take action, but many Quebeckers and Canadians are having their vehicles stolen on a daily basis. What more can we do? What more can the government do?

At the National Summit on Combatting Auto Theft, CBSA officials had to deal with attacks from all sides. Investments to strengthen CBSA are all well and good, yet a report was published indicating a lack of training for border services officers and inspectors who work directly at the ports, in particular.

I would also like to hear your comments on that.

[Terri O'Brien]

The investments in the CBSA were across additional investigators and training, as well as analytics. The continued sharing of information will be critical for us, CBSA and other law enforcement partners, so we can do more targeted inspections. Sharing that intelligence in targeted inspections has proven to be very successful as we spoke about it with the U.S. jurisdiction.

I think that's critical. It's certainly not feasible to inspect every container. However, the CBSA has been an excellent partner in that regard, and we're looking to increase information sharing with them as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Next, we have Mr. Julian, for six minutes, please.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses. We really appreciate your testimony.

I'd like to start with you, Ms. O'Brien.

I would like to know two things. First, the CBSA cuts that we saw under the former Harper government really haven't been restored under the current government. To what extent do you believe that has had an impact on our ability to cut the export of stolen cars? The estimates range as high as 80%, as I know you're aware. To what extent have those cutbacks helped to trigger, in a sense, this increase in crime syndicates using auto theft as a way of making money?

Second, I'm interested in the work of the analysts. When the analysts determine that there are suspected exports of stolen vehicles, who do they contact first? Do they contact CBSA? Do they contact the Montreal police? How is that information shared? What has been the response time for those concerns being raised by the analysts at CBSA and the police?

[Terri O'Brien]

Thank you for the good questions.

I can't speak to the CBSA cuts, necessarily, as I don't really have purview over its organizational structure and funding structure, but what I can say is that with the resources it has allocated to outbound inspections, it has always been responsive. It's always been a great partner, understanding, of course, that the priority in recent years has been on inspections of guns and drugs coming into the country.

In our understanding of this complex, multi-faceted problem of auto theft, it's also been a key learning in the past two years that auto theft is funding gun and drug crimes in our communities. The additional funding now put into the CBSA has been welcome, and it is focused on auto theft and ensuring that we have those inspections in place to cut off that funding source. I think that is important.

In terms of analytics and how they help, analytics can look at things such as VIN data—as my colleague Mr. Vording mentioned—container weight, shipping lines, shipper destinations and other non-PII data to target those containers that have red flags, as in the example earlier. It may not be a container of dishwashers, and we can tell that by all of the various data elements that are analyzed.

How we share different trends and intelligence these days is through the MOUs we have in place and our partnerships with law enforcement, and then law enforcement shares that with the CBSA. What we'd like to do is open up that information sharing through an MOU or tri-party agreement, inclusive of the CBSA, such that it can share some of the information off the B13 manifests.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

My next question is for both you, Ms. O'Brien, and you, Ms. Power.

I notice from the deck that there has been a spike upward in motor vehicle thefts in Ontario and Quebec. It's 53% in Ontario and 66% in Quebec over the last two years. In Atlantic Canada, it's 26%. Western Canada is the anomaly, with only an 8% rise. In British Columbia, we actually saw a decrease in 2022.

To what extent is the B.C. model...? I know you're aware that B.C. has the largest bait car program in the world. Our thanks go to the New Westminster Police, the RCMP in Burnaby and Surrey, and all of the law enforcement, including the transit police who are involved in that bait car program.

What are the best practices we can learn from the B.C. model? While not perfect, it has certainly contributed to not seeing the rise that we're seeing in other parts of the country. Can we learn from the bait car program in B.C. and in B.C.'s Lower Mainland? Are there other things that we can learn from as well?

[Terri O'Brien]

Thank you for the question.

What I can share is that we have significant bait car vehicle programs in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, and we work collaboratively with our members in the insurance industry and with law enforcement to run those programs. What I would share about the difference in the experience with B.C. is that the illegal trade markets overseas are across the Atlantic. They are in the continent of Africa and in the Middle East, primarily, as well as in various countries in Europe.

However, on the west coast, there are not the illegal trade markets in China and Asia, and some of the other countries that you would see across the Pacific.

Secondarily, I would say that all of the shipping routes through the Pacific Ocean have to cross over into U.S. territory. If they go south, they're almost immediately out of the port of Vancouver or other B.C. ports and into U.S. territory. If they go north, they hit Alaskan waters and are, again, in U.S. territory. Therefore, they are subject to search and seizure by U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

Due to the lack of illegal trade markets overseas and that impediment with U.S. markets, we're seeing far more exploits and illegal vehicle shipments across the Atlantic.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

Can I ask Ms. Power what we can learn from B.C.?

[Celyeste Power]

To Ms. O'Brien's point, we are seeing less auto theft from B.C., of course, because of a number of provincial actions, but also because we aren't seeing the export on the B.C. side that we're seeing on the Atlantic side. For example, Alberta actually has a high theft rate. It's just that it's not as costly from an insurance perspective because we can get the vehicles back, since they're not able to make their way out of the country as quickly as we've seen elsewhere.

In terms of provincial recommendations like the bait program, which is an excellent one, the tag team we're seeing in Ontario is another good one. From a provincial perspective, revinning and closing those loopholes that we heard about from the other witness today would be incredibly helpful.

However, I would like to note, as Terri mentioned, that there's a bigger picture for why we're not quite seeing those in B.C. Nonetheless, we should be learning from what works there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

We're moving into the second round now.

Mr. Kurek, go ahead, please. You have five minutes.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much.

Thanks to our witnesses for being here.

I want to bring a rural dynamic into the conversation. I would note that I believe it was about a year and a half or two years ago that the insurance industry and others declared that auto theft was a crisis. Back in the 42nd Parliament, motion 167 on rural crime talked extensively about rural auto thefts. Both of you noted, in the periphery of your remarks, the dynamics associated with export versus with more domestic challenges. I know that chop shops are a big issue in rural Canada.

Can you comment on how we can crack down on and track not just vehicles but also how they're being sold for parts and broken down in that way? That's obviously a significant part of the conversation.