Public Safety Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Okay.

In Canada, we have 13 jurisdictions provincially and territorially. Is there any interoperability between these systems for registering vehicles so that they exchange data? If they say that this vehicle comes from Nova Scotia, could we check to...?

[Dan Service]

I'm glad you asked that question. Absolutely. We do cross-Canada checks all the time. However, when someone takes a stolen vehicle from one province to another, they'll walk into a busy registry location. The person behind the counter will have to do an initial query, then a cross-country query and then a vehicle history check. They might even have to make some phone calls to determine what the history of that vehicle is and whether it's legitimately for sale in the province they're in.

Those questions become pointless if you have no one you can send out to validate what you're being told. That's what's happening now. You see a lineup of 20 or 30 people at a registry office and a clerk who, without the training or experience to legitimately validate a vehicle that's in front of them, simply presses a button and says, “Okay, we're going to register now.”

The reality, sir, is that—

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I'm going to interrupt you here because I only have 12 seconds left.

Is it a good idea, and is it possible, that these validations could be done internally within the software in each province, so with registered vehicles, it would automatically check—

[Dan Service]

That is the question I was going to answer. These vehicles cannot be validated without a physical inspection. It is not possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McKinnon.

Ms. Michaud.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Service, I'm going to ask you a question similar to the one I asked Mr. Brochet earlier about VINs.

Ill-intentioned exporters are apparently getting VINs of cars that are in accidents or sold in auctions online. Even if the same VINs come up repeatedly in export declarations, the Canada Border Services Agency isn't able to detect it.

To your knowledge, how could the agency improve its procedures for detecting fraudulent vehicle identification numbers? Mr. Brochet seemed to say that it's extremely difficult to do. What do you think the agency could do?

[Dan Service]

Certainly, there are people better qualified to speak to the CBSA practices and policies than I am.

I can simply say that, in all cases, VINs are unique unto themselves. There cannot be more than one that accurately represents a vehicle, so if you have a duplicate, one of them is false.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

How does one determine that a vehicle identification number is false?

[Dan Service]

You know from a physical examination. If you have two in two separate locations, you have to literally go and look at both of them to determine which one is the false one. Frankly, the people who are doing cloning and revinning are really good at it. You need an expert.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I take it there's a need for cooperation.

The police say they must reasonably suspect that a stolen vehicle is in a certain container or they must have a vehicle theft operation going on before they can go and identify the vehicles to see if the thieves have used falsified VINs.

So, if the Canada Border Services Agency, police officers and port authorities were specifically working together and sharing more information, do you feel that would already be a step in the right direction?

[Dan Service]

Absolutely. I think that information sharing, under the auspices of legitimacy and authority, is key to having an impact on this type of crime.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to go to you, Commissioner Carrique.

We've heard a lot about financial crimes, the use of money laundering by these crime syndicates. Can you speak to the resources that are available to police forces across the country to crack down on the big fish, the crime syndicates that are able to money launder with impunity?

The fact that so many of these crimes go unpunished.... What are the kinds of resources and tools that are needed by our chiefs of police across the country, and police forces generally, to crack down on crime syndicates and the massive level of financial crimes?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

I am really glad that you asked that question. Thank you, sir.

There is definitely an investment needed to increase, nationally, our capacity to look at financial crimes. Auto theft is a great example of a money-laundering activity. As I've mentioned, these vehicles are sold, and then the proceeds from that are diverted into arms dealing and other very serious crimes as well.

Many jurisdictions have some capacity. In Ontario, there's the provincial asset forfeiture unit, which is embedded in every auto theft investigation, but nationally there's definitely a need and an opportunity to invest in increased capacity.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

This is very similar to the question I asked Mr. Brochet: Do you have a sense of the order of investment that would be required?

We're coming up to a budget this spring. This is a major issue, particularly in eastern Canada. What are the size and the scale of the resources that need to be invested so that a year from now we're looking at a different situation in terms of financial crimes and money laundering and also in terms of auto theft?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

I can very easily get back to you on that in short order. There have been a number of proposals done through various police services to look at a national model. It would be very easy to follow up with you and this committee as to what resources would be required. I don't have that with me here today, but I'm happy to provide that as a follow-up item.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I would really appreciate that, because our recommendations should be coming forward soon, hopefully, which would mean prior to a budget, so those figures would be very important. The former Conservative government was incredibly soft on financial crime. The current government has not taken action either. It's time that changed.

Thank you very much for your comments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

Thank you to all of our witnesses who are here today.

Before we go any further, on Wednesday the clerk distributed the draft budget in the amount of $39,700 for the study of the growing problem of car thefts in Canada. Are there any questions or comments? If not, is it the will of the committee to adopt it?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

All right. Is the committee in agreement to adjourn the meeting?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

The meeting is adjourned.