Public Safety Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I'll start with Mr. Williams. I'll say I'm a little disappointed, because the witnesses we've heard from have talked about a multi-layered approach and how there are issues with CBSA, law enforcement, the industry and insurance, and everyone has a part to play. However, your organization just came here and said we need an “auto czar”—whatever that is and and whatever that does. That doesn't really acknowledge jurisdictional issues and whatnot.

Why doesn't the auto industry have a part to play in the minds of dealers?

[Huw Williams]

Let me be perfectly clear. Car dealers don't want our vehicles to be stolen. We don't want our customers to be victims of it. I think the answer deserves a fair commentary.

When customers come into dealerships and say they're turning in their keys because they're worried about this brand being in the top 10, and they don't want their wife or family to be carjacked while they're driving it, that's a problem.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I appreciate that.

Why aren't you demanding that your manufacturers make it more difficult to steal the cars, or requesting that the government step in with more regulation with respect to the auto industry and the items that can be put in place if the industry doesn't want to do anything?

[Huw Williams]

I want to be clear. We do put pressure on the manufacturers to try to make the cars...and we work co-operatively with them to try to up that game against organized crime. Respectfully, we just don't do it by writing letters to them.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I didn't ask you to write letters. You came here to testify as an expert. You didn't mention anything in terms of that except that your only solution to this is an auto czar.

I'll move on.

You stated that the rates of auto theft are lower in the United States. You did say that specifically, to be fair to you, with respect to one brand of vehicle. Were you just testifying with respect to one brand of vehicle? We heard from Équité at the last meeting that the rates of auto theft in the United States and Canada are very similar.

Do you have different evidence or data to provide to this committee to show that the rates of auto theft are actually higher in Canada?

[Huw Williams]

Yes. I would be happy to provide the data to the committee. I would say that, historically, the rates in auto theft, correcting for population, have been higher in Canada than in the United States. It's one of the few areas over 30 years....

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

You'll provide me with that data, and Équité, which testified last week, is wrong.

[Huw Williams]

No, I would not say that Équité is wrong. What I would say is that we have definitely seen, in the last two years, spikes in auto theft in the U.S. as well.

[David Adams]

If I could interject and answer your question....

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Be very quick, Mr. Adams. I'm running out of time.

[David Adams]

Sure.

You asked for a comparison. The National Insurance Crime Bureau in the United States stipulated that, from 2021 to 2022, their auto insurance theft rates increased by 10.4%. StatsCan reported an increase from 2021 to 2022 of 24%. For similar vehicles in both countries, there was twice the rate of increase in auto theft in Canada as there was in the United States, according to StatsCan and National Insurance Crime Bureau.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

You did agree with the Conservative point in terms of their “tough on crime” approach. In terms of that having that similar rate, and I guess we can debate in terms of.... I'll concede the point that the increase may be higher, but the rates are still probably the same or very similar. Why do you think that higher levels of incarceration and higher sentences, which exist in the United States, and a higher prevalence of mandatory minimums...? Why is that not working in the United States, but it will work in Canada?

[Huw Williams]

Do you want me to answer that question, sir?

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

You're the one who spoke to it, yes.

[Huw Williams]

I'd be happy to do so.

I was appointed by a Liberal member, the Liberal minister, to sit on the national business crime prevention council under Minister Rock. I dealt with the social determinants of how to help Canadians commit fewer crimes. We're not here purporting that we jump on the U.S.-style system; I want to be clear about that.

However, what we are hearing from law enforcement is the frustration with the rearrest format. I think we should all be outraged that organized crime is taking advantage of young people and paying them a lot of money to steal cars and do home invasions. There's something different about the way Canada is, particularly in Quebec and Ontario—again, this is what law enforcement tell us—and with the funnel coming through the port of Montreal. I think when you look at what happens on the west coast, you see that, yes, you have the continuation of the crime task force, but you also have that funnel of cars constantly going through the port of Montreal.

I will note that the law enforcement chiefs of police in Ontario told me personally that they're concerned about Hamilton coming on as a port. Does that become the next point of entry for organized crime to take advantage of?

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you. I'm out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bittle.

We'll move to Ms. Michaud, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As was mentioned earlier, this isn't a uniquely Canadian problem. In fact, we're seeing an increase in vehicle theft elsewhere in the world, particularly in the United States and Europe.

Earlier this week, the president of the Equité Association told us that manufacturers in the U.K. had implemented flight prevention technologies. They would have been incentivized to move forward after insurers stopped insuring the frequently stolen makes of vehicles. That's why they've developed these technologies.

Mr. Adams, can you tell us about those technologies? I'm not sure if you're familiar with these technologies that have been developed in the U.K. You represent global automakers, so I would think so.

I'm wondering if, in Canada, we'll have to wait for some insurers to decide to stop insuring certain makes of vehicles before manufacturers decide to go ahead. Can we not move forward and follow the example of the U.K.?

[David Adams]

I would say that automakers are already taking proactive steps now to harden and safeguard their vehicles. In terms of the activity that's been undertaken in the U.K., I'm vaguely familiar with that, but what I understand is that every solution has unintended consequences. Some of the unintended consequences that I'm aware of in the solution proposed in the U.K. is that some auto manufacturers have said it's not worth the cost of investing in that technology, at least for certain models. As a result, the model availability of vehicles has dropped.

That's not to say that technology might not be something that we should look at, but I guess with respect to the overall issue of technology I would just say that, as an association, we advocated for the holding of these hearings. We're interested in getting to the bottom of auto theft. We know that we're part of the solution, but we're not necessarily looking to be a scapegoat in terms of “it's all the automakers' problem”. I think the federal government has outlined that, as an outcome of the auto theft study, the justice system needs to be looked at.

CBSA needs resources and, more to Mr. Lyons' point, resources to implement technology. We haven't upheld our international shipping obligations in terms of implementing treaties that would implement technology to safeguard exports going out of the country. It is an all-of-society problem, and if we want to look at technology and implement technology, sure, we can look at that, but my response to you would be that we have an auto theft problem right now in Canada. If we have a solution that's going to be a technology standard, that's going to take some time to implement, with software, hardware and getting suppliers on board to facilitate that. We're happy to look at that, but it's not going to do anything to solve the problem right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Mr. Julian, you'll be the last one up for this panel, please.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

I have just a very quick question for you, Mr. Adams. You said that there were fewer models available in the U.K. market. If you have any information on what that has actually meant for that retirement or reduction—three models or 30 models—I think it would be helpful to us.

I want to come back to you, Mr. Lyons.

Just before the chair cut me off on my questioning, I was going to follow up. You said that, in 2018, there was an integrated crime unit in Ontario that was ended...?

[Damon Lyons]

I believe it was around 2015. It was the Ontario provincial auto theft team that existed since the early 2000s. Again, at the Ontario level, they were coordinated across the various police departments just to tackle auto theft. We saw it in that time period.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

It ended in 2018.

[Damon Lyons]

I believe in the area of 2015. It was hard to actually get the start date and the end date, but it was in that time period—from my recollection anyway.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

If you have more information to offer on that, it would be helpful.