Evidence of meeting #13 for Public Safety and National Security in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-12.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Chak Au Conservative Richmond Centre—Marpole, BC
My other question is about asset seizure. Compared to the United States and Australia, Canada recovers far fewer crime proceeds. What structural barriers limit the RCMP's ability to seize drug-related proceeds quickly and at scale?
A/Commr Derek Santosuosso
Mr. Chair, I don't have an answer for you on that, but I will endeavour to get you something.
Conservative
Conservative
Chak Au Conservative Richmond Centre—Marpole, BC
We know that the methods of money laundering for criminal proceeds entering into Canada are changing quite fast. They're employing new methods of doing criminal activities. Is the RCMP trying to catch up? How far and how fast do we have to go to catch up with these new methods of criminal activities?
A/Commr Derek Santosuosso
Mr. Chair, the activities of the criminals keep changing. My colleague from the OPP said it quite well, I think. We have to try to keep ahead of them. The second that we make an arrest and use a technique, we've educated the criminal, and they're able to then look for some way to circumvent that. The RCMP continues to try to keep ahead of that as best we can.
This new legislation that exists in Bill C‑12 and that is in Bill C-2, which the RCMP remains supportive of, would help us get some of the tools we would need to keep up with what is going on in the criminal world.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
I'm sorry for being so rude, but I have to move to the next speaker.
Madam Dandurand, you have five minutes please.
Liberal
Marianne Dandurand Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC
Mr. Santosuosso, I too would like to thank you very much for the work you do to protect Canadians. Frankly, you're doing an exceptional job.
I'll go back to the lawful access framework that Mr. Morris talked about. I'm very interested in the RCMP's perspective: If we modernize this lawful access to information framework, what kind of operational barriers could be removed?
A/Commr Derek Santosuosso
Mr. Chair, as I mentioned, we at the RCMP remain supportive of the legislation that's been proposed in Bill C-2, as well as obviously what we're here to talk about, which is Bill C‑12.
We are the only Five Eyes country that does not have lawful access legislation. There are a number of like-minded democratic western countries that do, and we do not. Just to catch up to that would be helpful—and I'll certainly allow my colleague with the OPP to speak as well—for us to fill that gap and to get us there.
The other part to remember when we start talking about changes and additions, whether they are in Bill C‑12 or in Bill C-2, is that there are already a number of checks and balances that exist within the Criminal Code for search warrants, for interception of private communications under part VI, or anything else along that measure, which allows Canadians to know that privacy is protected, their rights are protected, and the courts are able to hold law enforcement to account and make sure we are doing the right thing. I think C‑2 and C‑12 are an excellent start for us.
Liberal
Marianne Dandurand Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC
Mr. Morris, do you have anything you'd like to add to that?
C/Supt Pat Morris
I don't mean to be repetitive, but as I understood you, it was about gaps and obstacles. I consider the components of lawful access and our capacity to be nimble and create a legislative framework so that we can become aware via judicial authorization at the highest level, lawfully and respecting the charter, to have access to criminal conspiracies. That is the number one obstacle.
I want to stress—I think I said this before—that this isn't theoretical. This happens every day. I believe that law enforcement is doing an excellent job in terms of acquiring the capacity, employing the initiative and lobbying. We have cases that are ongoing in relation to this currently, and we're in constant communication with the Ministry of the Attorney General and the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, not just with problems but with solutions.
The solution, I believe, is threefold: alterations to the Criminal Code in terms of part VI to permit the use of on-device investigative techniques; second, to impact the disclosure and privilege law so that it can be effective; and last, perhaps to make it a criminal offence to utilize it in any other way that wouldn't be lawful, because that would mitigate or alleviate some societal concerns about privacy.
I really think it's about education and communication. I don't mean to be belittling to anyone in terms of the Canadian public, but I think this is often sold as we are looking for new rights and new powers to intrude, and I don't think that captures, in essence, the status of what's transpiring.
Liberal
Marianne Dandurand Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC
Thank you.
We have representatives from the RCMP and the Ontario Provincial Police. Is this the kind of initiative that can strengthen collaboration between the various police forces and government agencies?
Liberal
C/Supt Pat Morris
Okay, I will answer. That's a great question.
The answer is yes in terms of collaboration, and I am quite blunt on this.
In the province of Ontario, we have the joint technical assistance centre. That is comprised of the largest Ontario police services to coordinate and collaborate in relation to lawful access and lawful intercept. That is the hub for the province of Ontario in terms of investigation, technology and in working with the Ministry of the Attorney General or the Public Prosecution Service of Canada. That's in Ontario, and we plan to expand that.
Outside of that, we work daily with the RCMP in terms of how to utilize our resources. When you ask that question, I can give 15 examples of how we utilize the federal divisions of the RCMP in terms of these specialized investigative techniques, O division, and how we work on that with the integrated national security enforcement teams and the criminal intelligence section.
We could always improve, but we are engaged in collaboration daily.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Thank you very much, Superintendent. That leaves us two and a half minutes for MP DeBellefeuille.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Commissioner Santosuosso, in Bill C‑12, we see that the reporting base will be expanded to the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada. It's going to generate more reporting, which is going to put more pressure on your financial crime units. Do you think you have the resources, now and in the future, to deal with the excessive workload for these units?
A/Commr Derek Santosuosso
It is more than a dual responsibility. If the crime is of a financial nature that rises to the level of federal policing, then our federal commercial crime units are able to undertake those.
In addition to the, as I mentioned earlier, 1,000 extra resources, some of those resources will be going directly into those federal units specifically to deal with financial crime and cybercrime.
With some of that other information that comes through, if it belongs to the police of jurisdiction, whether it's the OPP's, Quebec's or wherever it belongs, we make sure that it gets to the relevant persons, and then they conduct those investigations in that space.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
Bill C‑12 strengthens controls so that precursors can be seized when they're imported. However, there may be a slight weakness in the bill that doesn't allow tracking of shipments to see if they're actually getting to customers who are using the precursors legally and correctly.
Do you have a proposed amendment that would have the bill require tracking of shipments to ensure that they reach legally authorized customers rather than being diverted for illicit activities?
A/Commr Derek Santosuosso
Mr. Chair, when it comes to what we're able to track or not track, certainly I think that on coming into the country, that's a question probably better suited for the CBSA, as they tend to—
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
I no longer have interpretation. I'm sorry. It must be because my mike is on.
Liberal
A/Commr Derek Santosuosso
When it comes to tracking of products coming into this country, whether that be by rail or cars, etc., they are most often coming in at ports of entry. I would suggest that the CBSA might be best suited to answer that question—
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
I'm sorry. I'm unable to hear the interpretation. The gentleman's sound is so loud that he's drowning out the interpretation. I don't know what's going on.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
So we will have to check.
Unfortunately, we also ran out of time about thirty seconds ago, so on behalf of all the MPs and the team, I would like to thank the three witnesses who kindly agreed to participate in this morning’s meeting. I thank them for their presence and their preparation for this meeting, which was important to us, and I wish them a good day.
For the members and the team, allow me to summarize what lies ahead for us over the next two weeks.
On November 20, two days from now, we will have additional witnesses on Bill C‑12. The deadline for proposing amendments to Bill C‑12 is Friday, November 21, at noon. Emails have already been sent to us by the clerk yesterday and over the past few weeks. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact him.
On November 25, next week, we will resume consideration of Bill C‑12 during the first hour, with witnesses. During the second hour, we will begin and complete clause-by-clause consideration. The following Thursday, November 27, we will return to the study on border management, and at the end of that meeting on November 27, we will have a presentation from Library of Parliament analysts for the drafting of the report.
Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.