Evidence of meeting #16 for Public Safety and National Security in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was border.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
President, National Police Federation
At Depot this year—not including our experienced police officer program, which may have 100 to 200 experienced police officers coming into the RCMP—we're looking at 40 troops of 32. Out of this number, you would have maybe 1,000 graduating, because not everybody graduates.
Conservative
Rhonda Kirkland Conservative Oshawa, ON
There are approximately 200 to 300 net officers in a year. Would that be fair to say?
President, National Police Federation
At its present pace, yes, but I know the RCMP is looking at expanding the number of troops next year, going up to 50, so we will probably have even more net.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Thank you, Madame Kirkland.
Let me now turn to MP Powlowski, who will speak for five minutes.
By the way, some of you may want to celebrate the fact—or not celebrate the fact—that MP Powlowski is now a regular member of this committee.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
I am pleased to be. Actually, this is good timing, because I met Mr. Bédard in my office on this very issue a couple of weeks ago.
I'm the member of Parliament for Thunder Bay—Rainy River, which means I go from Thunder Bay to the Manitoba border. It's a big border area. The people in the west of my riding, around Lake of the Woods and Rainy River, are really upset with the lack of border patrol in the region, primarily because of Americans fishing on the Canadian side and not following all the rules they're supposed to be following.
I've been involved over a number of years in trying to get an increase in the number of RCMP and CBSA members working in that area. My understanding is that the RCMP is trying to recruit more people for that area, but this has been pretty unsuccessful so far. There used to be 25 RCMP members stationed between White River and the Manitoba border. I think there are now three.
What is the problem in getting more RCMP to a place like northwestern Ontario to be involved in federal policing? With this budget, we've committed to hiring 1,000 new officers. I think there's an increased recruitment allowance of $1,000.
Number one, what's the problem? Number two, does what we did in this budget go very far in addressing the problem?
President, National Police Federation
This would be subject to Lucas's additional comments.
In my opening remarks, I mentioned a sustained commitment to the federal policing mandate of the RCMP. We have seen shifting priorities from different governments—which shifts the response, with a limited human resource pool, in the federal policing program. For example, one particular government might see cybercrime or international money laundering as the problem of the day. The RCMP responds by moving resources there, taking them away from border security, national security or whatever. Now we see border security as an issue, so we're perhaps shifting resources from other units, waiting for adequate resources to backfill to have a sustained mandate.
Lucas can comment from his experience in Montreal, which is most probably similar to your experience from headquarters in London, Ontario.
Director, Atlantic Central Region, National Police Federation
Essentially, as Brian said, it boils down to priority mandates. If I speak about Quebec, it's similar to Ontario, since it's a federal policing mandate.
National security investigations are probably number one on the list. Protective services are second. Then you have a plethora of other things that come into effect—fentanyl, which would come under the CFSEU, and then the border. When you don't have enough members to fill all those gaps, you wind up making choices, and those choices wind up creating other gaps. Problems then arise, and you have to fix those problems. You keep doing the pieces of the puzzle around you.
In short, you need to have your staff fully staffed in order to get Rainy River, Valleyfield or Saint-Georges de Beauce filled. Until that is complete, we will be living these—
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
How much of the problem is the fact that...? From talking to the RCMP, my understanding is that the priority goes to contract policing. You have a contract with, say, some towns in communities in Saskatchewan or Manitoba, places where there is no provincial police force. When new recruits are trained, I think at federal expense, they end up in these positions rather than doing the federal policing.
Did I hear you right, Mr. Sauvé, that you recommend for the RCMP to get out of contract policing and be solely dedicated to federal policing?
President, National Police Federation
No—not unless there's a different Sauvé.
President, National Police Federation
That would not be my recommendation. In fact, we have an entire report on the RCMP and how the integrated model we provide probably best serves Canada from a lot of perspectives.
I will say that, yes. In contract policing, resources are protected by contract, which the RCMP must deliver on. It may be hard to believe, because it's long in the rear-view mirror, but we are still coming out of the pandemic in post-secondary educational institutions. Our training academy at Depot shut down for six months. It then had to slowly ramp up. When you talk about six months, it is not just one troop: 24 troops of 32 had their training interrupted. They had to restart.
We are just getting back to a point of being at cruise control on the highway from the COVID pandemic with respect to recruiting. I've said this a lot: Training a police officer is not a light switch. It's a dimmer switch. You slowly turn it up to get them out the door.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Thank you, Mr. Powlowski.
Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Sauvé, I'll repeat in French some of what you said in English. You have between 18,500 and 19,000 officers spread out across Canada. This number has remained more or less the same for a number of years. Your responsibilities are growing. Organized crime is increasingly organized and equipped with technologies that the RCMP lacks.
You said something worth noting. If the government declares that the priority lies in the fight against greenwashing or money laundering, then the resources will follow. Today, borders are the issue. A few months ago, the issue was car theft. So the resources have shifted.
Which sector is currently being depleted as resources shift to the government's current priority of border control? Which sector is suffering right now? Is it the investigations?
President, National Police Federation
I'll ask Mr. Bédard to answer your question. He experienced this in Quebec City or Montreal.
Director, Atlantic Central Region, National Police Federation
To answer your question, Mrs. DeBellefeuille, I would say that there have indeed been many shifts in priorities. As a result, not just one sector or one investigation has been suffering the consequences. They have all been affected.
Take the Saint‑Jean‑sur‑Richelieu border, for example. Currently a minimum of 12 officers work each shift. Ideally, 24 are needed, but there are never that many. Right now, many staff are loaned out to make up the shortfall. By using staff from the federal policing national security program or the combined forces special enforcement unit to fill these positions, we're opening up our investigative services to other issues. It's a bit like a game of musical chairs.
So there isn't just one sector completely devoid of resources. However, as we shift resources left and right, we aren't operating at full capacity.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
You said that a game of musical chairs in response to changing priorities and insufficient resources are weakening a number of sectors at once. You said that the ideal number of officers in Saint‑Jean‑sur‑Richelieu would be 24 per shift. This means that the Valleyfield command post in my constituency also lacks resources. Moreover, this post is located far from the border. I know that talks are under way to create a satellite post in the Haut‑Saint‑Laurent RCM. This would help you operate more effectively and respond more quickly.
Would you recommend setting up satellite posts?
Director, Atlantic Central Region, National Police Federation
We already have some. Sherbrooke has a satellite post in Stanstead, and Saint‑Jean‑sur‑Richelieu has one in Saint‑Bernard‑de‑Lacolle, not far from the border.
In my opinion, we need to put a bit more energy into technology. In particular, the members are asking for drones. For example, in Beauce, we have cameras and motion detectors. However, the members must go from one camera to another to retrieve the SD card. They then arrive two weeks too late.
Director, Atlantic Central Region, National Police Federation
We need better technology so that our members can properly patrol border areas and become equipped to tackle organized crime and human trafficking in real time.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Thank you. Sorry to interrupt this important discussion so abruptly. However, I must now give the floor to Mr. Lloyd for five minutes.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Parkland, AB
I'll start with Professor West.
Is it your opinion that, if the government comes forward with lawful access legislation, it should be stand-alone legislation and not part of a bigger package, as we saw with Bill C-2?
Associate Professor, As an Individual
It's because lawful access demands fulsome debate on its own merits. There are always opportunities to tweak around the edges. We've seen lawful access reform put forward in various bills to deal with specific issues, but the type of reform that was proposed in Bill C-2 was so significant that it really deserved its own bill.