Public Safety Committee on Nov. 27th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you for this good discussion.

MP Au, you have five minutes, please.

[Chak Au, Conservative, Richmond Centre—Marpole, BC]

I want to go back to Police Chief Swamp. I have questions about the indigenous police force.

You brought up the lack of funding, and you said that we need more funding; however, in an Auditor General's report from 2024, it was mentioned that $13 million in indigenous policing funding went unused. Are you aware of funding for indigenous policing not being spent?

[Ranatiiostha Swamp]

I believe that the unused funding was a result of the lack of staffing we have and the line-by-line items projected for the funding. We went through a period when we were very understaffed, and it continues today. Some of the funding was specifically targeted, and we were unable to use it.

[Chak Au, Conservative, Richmond Centre—Marpole, BC]

From your perspective, you have a lack of funding for recruiting more officers.

[Ranatiiostha Swamp]

That's correct; that is true. We lack funding for recruitment and retention specifically. We are struggling in that area.

[Chak Au, Conservative, Richmond Centre—Marpole, BC]

I'm sorry to hear that.

The auditor's report also commented on serious issues, such as poor financial management oversight, lack of systematic engagement with indigenous communities, inconsistent RCMP staffing dedication in many communities and insufficient monitoring of whether policing agreement terms were met. I think this is a very serious problem, exposing that although there may be a contract or some kind of agreement, it's not being well managed or monitored.

Do you have any comments on this?

[Ranatiiostha Swamp]

I'm not able to speak to the specific, long-standing concerns you're raising. I can speak to the strong relationships that are being re-established more recently, since my placement.

Regarding mismanagement of funds, that's the first I've heard of it. I can certainly look into it. I know that we are very funding-oriented, and there are a lot of internal and external audits transpiring within council.

[Chak Au, Conservative, Richmond Centre—Marpole, BC]

It's in the Auditor General's report from 2023-24.

Chief, I think you have the advantage of being able to see how the system works here and south of the border. From your experience and perspective, what is working south of the border that we should make reference to or even adopt here in Canada?

[Ranatiiostha Swamp]

I think they're taking more of a stronghold approach south of the border. They're looking at different avenues, and they're moving ahead with full force.

I don't know if it's a matter of restrictions that are limiting us. Possibly, we have more restrictions in place that limit our progress.

[Chak Au, Conservative, Richmond Centre—Marpole, BC]

Can you elaborate further on that with examples? How are things working better or more efficiently south of the border and not here? Do you have some case examples for us?

[Ranatiiostha Swamp]

I'm sorry, but I don't have case examples.

All I can do is relay that we are continuing to build partnerships at the frontline level, and it seems that the frontline level—with informal protocols in place—is getting a lot of work done. When we talk about organized crime, though, and about the complexities involved in transnational occurrences, we need to put in frameworks to streamline them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Chief Swamp and MP Au.

Last, let me turn to MP Powlowski.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

If I can return to my previous line of questioning, you talked about not having enough officers. It's certainly an issue in my riding. The purpose of the committee, with this study, is to make recommendations to the government.

What recommendations do you have for things the government ought to be doing to try to get more RCMP officers out there?

[Brian Sauvé]

We were pleased to see the increase to the cadet recruitment allowance. It's one thing we've been advocating for over a number of years. That will improve the applicant flow to the RCMP; by the way, this set a record last year, and it's anticipated—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Sauvé.

Let's check to hear if the interpretation now works.

Does it work?

We'll suspend until it works.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

I call the meeting back to order.

I'll give you the floor again, Mr. Sauvé.

[Brian Sauvé]

We were definitely encouraged to see an increase in the cadet recruitment allowance. I finished earlier by saying that the RCMP has seen a record surge in the number of applicants over the last year, and they expect to see another record number of applicants this year. Hence, they are planning to expand the training capacity of Depot next year to around 10 more troops than they had this year.

As we go into contract negotiations, and I hope the renewal of contracts beyond 2032.... I know that close to 450 or 500 of our members serving in contract provinces have a federal policing role on their human resources profile and would like to transfer out out of—I don't know—Gods Lake Narrows, Manitoba, for example, or Cold Lake, Alberta, and move into roles in national security, border enforcement or VIP protection.

As more cadets graduate, as we bring in more experienced police officers for different roles, those folks will be able to transition into greater roles, and Rainy River will see more RCMP members.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

We have another expert here, and he would like to ask a question, so I'll turn it over to Bill.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thanks very much, Marcus.

We've talked about RCMP recruiting, and we think it's very positive. We're starting to see some real progress. I was around in 2013, and at the time, as a result of significant reductions in staffing of the RCMP, all 13 of the integrated proceeds of crime units across the country were closed. It's not just the number of people but also the expertise that was lost during the closing of those offices.

We've seen some difficulties with prosecutions. I'm thinking of E-Pirate in British Columbia. The prosecution collapsed for a number of very complicated reasons, but I think part of it was the expertise.

Mr. Bédard, you're involved in frontline policing. Could you comment on the ability of the RCMP to respond to the increasingly complex investigations required on money laundering? The entire legislative environment is becoming very difficult, so perhaps you could comment on our ability to respond to that.

[Lucas Bédard]

I can speak for C Division. We still have a money laundering unit with the expertise of the previous proceeds of crime unit. We don't really have that issue in Quebec. Outside of this, it's limited in scope for me because I take care of Quebec, but for Quebec, our expertise is still very much there when it comes to money laundering and the organized crime world around there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Mr. Powlowski and Mr. Blair.

I want to thank the four witnesses for their participation today and for their time and effort in preparing their remarks.

We'll now take a break for a few minutes before moving on to the next part of the meeting.

[Proceedings continue in camera]