Public Safety Committee on Nov. 27th, 2025

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

How do they compare?

[Ranatiiostha Swamp]

We're in a quad agreement with the Quebec, Ontario and federal governments.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I will turn to Mr. Sauvé.

Thank you again for being with us today.

You underscored the need for us to streamline our procurement practices so that the RCMP can do a much better job. You touched on the issue of national security exemptions when it comes to procurement. Could you elaborate on this so that all of us can familiarize ourselves with what needs to be done?

[Brian Sauvé]

I have previously given some specific examples about the challenges with procurement. I understand Minister Lightbound is doing a review on procurement, and we've submitted to that.

My friend Mr. Bédard may also have commentary. In the Swanton sector, deploying mobile command posts, having unmanned aerial surveillance remotely look at the border and using radar tools, for example, within the seaway along Lake St. Francis or those particular areas, as well as updating infrastructure on a continual basis, are things that face challenges within the RCMP.

If we really look at border security as a national security issue, I think there's an opportunity for whatever sitting government to say you can bypass these procurement rules and go with whatever trusted vendor you see fit.

I don't know if Lucas has something to add.

[Lucas Bédard, Director, Atlantic Central Region, National Police Federation]

The only thing I'll add is that, for the border piece in Quebec, the members require technology in order to do their jobs properly.

If you look at Beauce, Saint-Jean, Sherbrooke and Valleyfield, which are our four border detachments across Quebec, they have limited capacity on technology.

Talking specifically about drones, if those drones could be equipped with infrared technology to detect human movements, and with Bluetooth technology and cellphone technology, this would greatly help them identify when people are coming across the border. People use their own intelligence against us, so they know when our patrols are in and when our patrols are out. This would greatly help us in our ability to move that forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Mr. Ehsassi.

I'll now give the floor to Mrs. DeBellefeuille for six minutes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for joining us.

Kwe, Mr. Swamp. When we started the border security study, I thought that there was no way that you would sit this one out. Thank you for accepting the invitation. I'm the member of Parliament for the constituency that includes Dundee and other border crossings. There's a great deal of co‑operation with Grand Chief Abram Benedict. I'm glad that you're here.

I would like you to talk about your recommendation. Today we're holding our final meeting on this study. We have one objective. We want to gather recommendations so that we can ask the government to make improvements to ensure better border security.

You talked about your need to expand marine facilities. Everyone knows that Dundee, Lake Saint Francis and Akwesasne have heavy waterway traffic. People involved in organized crime have big boats with powerful engines in order to move fast. Even the Royal Canadian Mounted Police may not have the equipment needed to go after people involved in organized crime who use high‑performance boats.

When you talk about the expansion of marine facilities, can you specify the needs? If these expansions were carried out and you had the necessary equipment, how would this change your work to ensure better border security?

[Ranatiiostha Swamp]

You would have a clear understanding of the complexity of dealing with that area, particularly Dundee, right to the dam area as well.

Speaking about marine operations, thankfully we have very much improved in that area. We have implemented two operational teams, which have been installed since 2017. As a result, we've established a marine boathouse facility to house our marine units. Unfortunately, at this point and age, we've already outgrown it. We are unable to meet the demands and the response time requirements. We are unable to have the rapid deployment capabilities of a marine unit, because of the lack of equipment and resources.

In addition, we face heavy countersurveillance. Organized crime within our community is exploiting that. We are in a small community. That's where our marine boathouse is located. We have identified, in the past, persons who have placed themselves strategically to conduct countersurveillance.

We need to be able to utilize the resources within the immediate and outside areas so that we can basically deploy our resources in those different areas and work collaboratively with the RCMP, the CBSA and the U.S. Border Patrol.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

As residents of the Dundee area can see, a few years ago, the RCMP removed its marine radars. These radars helped the RCMP share information in real time. As a result, there are fewer RCMP marine units on the scene.

Do you agree that the RCMP should once again install modern radar technology so that it can send you information more quickly, in real time, thereby giving you the opportunity to carry out joint marine operations?

[Ranatiiostha Swamp]

Absolutely. I would agree.

We need advanced technologies to respond to the complexity of our jurisdiction. It would be a disservice to both Canada and the U.S. to have limitations and restrictions on law enforcement capabilities. We need those advancements to meet the demands and the ongoing countereffects of the organized crime.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

You have one minute left.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Okay.

Mr. Swamp, you recommend formal agreements or procedures. I thought that the partners had agreements, but you talked about formal agreements. What do you mean by that? What's your expectation?

[Ranatiiostha Swamp]

I'm referring to cross-border protocols, which need to be in place so that we can streamline operations. Right now, because we have an organized crime unit, we have established a working agreement with the RCMP and the SQ. We have small frontline agreements in place, but we need to establish larger protocols for cross-border....

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.

Ms. Kirkland, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I've enjoyed the study. I'm thankful that Madame DeBellefeuille decided to move that we study this, because this border management study has revealed a lot of things to us.

I have found that, in the discovery and in speaking with folks at the RCMP, the CBSA and so on, some disturbing things have come forward, specifically with regard to the CBSA. Mark Weber, the president of the Customs and Immigration Union, for instance, testified about a toxic work culture at the CBSA. The attrition rate is preventing, quite frankly, the ability to hire the new officers we would like to have.

Mr. Sauvé, do RCMP members report similar patterns? If so, is it a widespread issue across the RCMP as well—that you're aware?

[Brian Sauvé]

I was here last week—Mr. Weber and I appeared on the panel—and I heard about the challenges the CBSA is having with respect to its workplace. In the headlines, you will see that the RCMP has had its challenges.

When I joined the RCMP over 20 years ago, it was a different place than it is today. I can attest that, through four commissioners under my service, the organization has taken great strides in improving its culture. When I started, a member might have turned a blind eye to something, but today, blind eyes aren't turned.

We are in a better place. Can we always improve if we're seeking perfection? Yes, but we are in a much better place.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I'll delve into this further to clarify and possibly get some discovery. The committee heard testimony that women, specifically, at the CBSA are removed from acting roles or specialty duties when they become pregnant, take maternity leave or experience serious illness.

In the last 10 years, have RCMP members reported anything similar? If so, has that improved, as you see it? Also, is there still potentially a problem for women specifically?

[Brian Sauvé]

I haven't seen what you would call a demotion as such, but the RCMP has a police service that's very operational out in the field.

We have a pregnant member working policy. When a member divulges they are with child, obviously, the organization has a responsibility to make sure the member and child are safe. Normally, they are taken out of harm's way, so they are not going to be responding to 911 calls and so on.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

That's perfectly understandable and accessible.

Are you aware of any officers who felt their career progression was harmed when they returned from maternity leave or anything like that?

[Brian Sauvé]

I'm sure those stories are out there. They haven't reached out to me, but if they see this testimony, they should please feel free to reach out to me. We'll deal with it.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

They haven't reached out to you, and that could be good news. It could be good news that it doesn't exist, but I think we'll find out. One thing I've learned over the past several weeks is that as soon as someone feels safe to say something, invariably, others generally feel safe to come forward as well. It will be interesting to see comments on that.

[Brian Sauvé]

I can add that since we signed our collective agreement in 2021, we have had a couple of ongoing grievances. Members who were in their probationary period out of Depot and went on parental, family-related or maternity leave did not get the salary progressions that a working constable would have gotten. We're working through them, and those grievances should be resolved, I hope, within the next year.

We think our argument is solid, and the RCMP thinks its argument is as well.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

It sounds as though the RCMP has worked through a progression of making culture change happen over the last many years. This gives me hope that the same thing can happen at the CBSA, and it gives me hope for all of those who are coming forward.

How's the attrition? Is there an annual attrition rate for RCMP members?

[Brian Sauvé]

Yes, there is. I got some numbers about two weeks ago, because we are definitely pushing for recruitment. You saw the government's commitment of 1,000 new members.

It is steady, if not declining. Usually, it was around 800 a year, give or take, across Canada in every business line, but we're down to about 790 or 775 or so. It's steady, if not declining.