Public Safety Committee on March 10th, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Thank you for attending meeting number 27 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Before we hear from the witness, I would like to ask the committee to adopt the budget that the clerk distributed to members this morning. It concerns the study of supplementary estimates (C) 2025-26.

Please note again that these amounts are estimates and that the committee could spend less on this study. Any funds that the committee does not spend will go back to the Liaison Committee. If there are any questions, the clerk can answer them.

Is it the will of the committee to adopt this budget?

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Okay.

This enables us, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), to move on to the motion adopted by the committee on September 18.

The committee is meeting on its study of Canada's ability to remove foreign nationals with a criminal record.

In that context, I would like to welcome the witness for this hour of the committee's meeting. From the International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy, we have Peter German, president and executive director.

Mr. German, you have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Peter German, President and Executive Director, International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you for the invitation to appear before this committee.

Allow me to introduce myself briefly.

I was a member of the RCMP for 31 years, retiring as deputy commissioner. I also served as deputy commissioner of Correctional Service Canada. As president and executive director of the International Centre for Criminal Law Reform, or ICCLR, I have the privilege of guiding our institute as its associates undertake projects within Canada and abroad. We are a United Nations affiliate located at the University of British Columbia. We are the result of a treaty between Canada and the UN. Several years ago, we created the Vancouver Anti-Corruption Institute within ICCLR.

I applaud the committee for seeking recommendations on preventing the entry of individuals who pose public safety risks while strengthening the effectiveness of Canada’s deportation mechanisms. Your work is both timely and important.

As indicated in the motion guiding this study, there are reports that 1,635 foreign nationals with criminal records are currently facing deportation. Of these, approximately 600 have failed to attend their deportation proceedings; their whereabouts are unknown. Another 431 have been found guilty of serious crimes, and 361 individuals have been avoiding deportation for more than two years. The numbers provided to this committee by the president of CBSA are even more shocking.

Imagine you are a foreign national with a criminal background facing an uncertain future in your home country or in another state. Where in the world might you choose to go? It would probably be a country that values multiculturalism, where large diaspora communities exist, where justice is fair, where the police do not abuse their authority, where health care and education are free and where individuals enjoy strong legal rights. In short, you may well choose Canada. Now imagine that after entering the country illegally, you are eventually discovered and arrested. You claim refugee status and seek your release while your case proceeds through the system. Would you sit around and wait for the CBSA to knock on your door?

Canada is an oasis for those seeking freedom and opportunity, but it can also become attractive to those seeking to exploit our openness for criminal purposes. We cannot allow ourselves to be taken for dupes. The brazen shootings in Surrey, Abbotsford and the regional districts around Toronto are examples in point.

Transnational organized crime is firmly rooted in Canada. Although it exists across the country, it is most visible in our major urban centres. That said, we are also aware of large-scale drug laboratories operating in rural areas. Canada has often been described as a high-value, low-risk country for transnational organized crime. The very qualities that make Canada a desirable place to live—stability, prosperity and strong legal protections—can also make it an attractive platform for criminal organizations.

At our borders, we rely heavily on the Canada Border Services Agency, which is a customs and revenue agency, not a police force. We have no port police and only private railway police. Ultimately, the fail-safe remains the RCMP, which is often expected to respond to a wide array of challenges across its federal policing responsibilities.

As you have heard from previous witnesses, many of the issues surrounding deportation stem from process. Canada’s federal agencies work hard, and the people within them are dedicated professionals. Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms is fundamental to our democracy, and our criminal justice system—judges, prosecutors and police—functions with integrity.

What we lack, I suggest, is a sense of urgency. Complacency can be a killer. In an increasingly unstable world, in which events occurring halfway around the globe can affect Canada almost immediately, we must ensure that we remain vigilant.

The committee has asked for recommendations on how individuals with criminal backgrounds can be prevented from entering Canada in the first place and how deportation processes can be made more effective.

First, the challenges faced by the RCMP are not the result of having too many mandates. Much larger organizations operate effectively with multiple mandates. What the RCMP requires is a significant infusion of resources.

I endorse the comments of Mr. Brian Sauvé of the National Police Federation to this committee.

At present, the RCMP is tasked with a wide range of federal responsibilities. These include preventing drugs from entering and exiting the United States through border enforcement, protecting national security, combatting cyber- and financial crime and addressing transnational organized crime.

At the same time, the organization continues to face resource reductions as part of broader government spending constraints. Contract policing, largely self-funded through agreements with the provinces and municipalities, is not the issue. Creating new agencies is not the answer. The challenge lies in the underfunding of the federal policing mandate.

Second, we must consider the consequences of releasing individuals with known criminal backgrounds while their cases proceed through lengthy legal processes. Communities across Canada are already grappling with the repeated release of prolific property and violent offenders shortly after arrest.

A similar dynamic exists with foreign nationals facing deportation. The immigration system must be properly resourced to deal with cases on a priority basis, eliminating the need to release high-risk individuals because of time delays inherent in the system.

Third, and closely related to these concerns, is the issue of border security. Our borders quite literally define Canada. A comprehensive and secure border strategy is essential, not only to protect Canadians but also to send a clear message to criminal networks that Canada is no longer an easy target.

Fourth, priority must be given to the removal of high-risk individuals through joint police-CBSA operations. Simply placing these individuals on the CPIC computer system, as we do with normal warrants, often means that no further action takes place unless the police happen upon the individuals.

Members of the committee, thank you again for the opportunity to appear before you. I appreciate the importance of the work you are undertaking.

I hope my remarks contribute to your deliberations. I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Mr. German.

This allows us to turn to MP Caputo for six minutes, please.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Dr. German.

We've lived parallel lives in some respects, although you've had a much more interesting experience in many respects. I started out as a parole officer and you made it to deputy commissioner, so well done.

Your work in policing and criminal law cannot be overstated. It's a real pleasure and honour. I also want to commend you for the fact that you observed Mr. Sauvé's evidence.

One thing we have dealt with at this committee that surprises me is the current role of students within CBSA. I'm not saying this as a partisan issue. I think everybody around the table should at least raise an eyebrow to this idea. Make no mistake, CBSA needs students. It's good for mentoring, and it's good for experience. I started out in corrections as a student, for instance.

I have no issue with that. The problem is that, at any given time—I'm not sure if you're aware of this—up to, I believe, 50% of the staff on the front lines at YVR, Vancouver airport, and other places are students. They are indistinguishable from somebody who's gone through the 20 weeks or whatever it is of training to be a CBSA officer. The student has three weeks, one of which is use of force, so that means there are two weeks of training. This is the principal point of entry for some of the people we are talking about today. I'm at a loss as to why this is permitted. I think it's all about money and staffing.

Could you comment on that, please?

[Peter German]

Let me trade compliments. We have the best parole officers in the world. Kudos to you for having done that job, which is not an easy job.

I would answer that in short by asking, do we allow student police officers to patrol our streets? We don't. We expect our police officers to complete training before they're out there.

There is a real role for students. The student program at customs and CBSA has been around for a long time, but the issue is, why is there a disproportionate number at the airport? I've heard this from the union publicly. Are they working with a trained CBSA officer or are they working, as you say, on their own? There's a role for students, but there's no question that there's also a place for students. I would draw the analogy to police forces. We expect our police to be fully trained before they hit the road.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC]

You give an excellent example. My understanding, Dr. German, is that students are expected to be under somebody's supervision. Everybody's under someone's supervision, but when I say that, I mean they're tethered. Whenever there are practicum students.... Even in Parliament, we have interns, and generally, they go with somebody. They would certainly never do the work of a parliamentarian. My understanding is that they are working independently, but a member of the public would have no idea about that. Obviously, somebody coming in has no idea about who they're dealing with, and I think this should alarm Canadians.

Moving on, one thing I found interesting about your opening comments was your highlighting that we have this issue that brings us here today, but really, there are many contributing factors. One thing you spoke about was bail, and I can tell you there's been a huge change in bail.

One of the things I attribute it to is that the laws of bail on the books haven't changed, but the common law of bail has. What I mean by that is the courts come out with decisions, and they're often favourable to the accused, because they will challenge them. They're sometimes favourable to the Crown—when I say favourable, I mean they promote more detention—but often to the accused. We have not seen Parliament legislate in light of those decisions. We've seen it just straight as it goes.

Do you think it's an issue that we haven't had any meaningful bail legislation in light of various serious common law decisions from the Supreme Court of Canada?

[Peter German]

I've personally worked with municipalities in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia that are very concerned about the current state of bail. I think we have to deal not only with the repeat violent offenders but also with repeat and prolific property offenders. That is a real issue in this country, and we have to deal with it.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Nicola, BC]

It's interesting for you to say that, because a lot of the time, we talk about violence.

Violence is unacceptable, but what people don't realize is that in something like a small business, the owner maybe makes $60,000 net. If they're victimized by 10 shoplifters at $10 a day, it doesn't sound like much, but it's $100 a day, $500 to $600 a week, $2,000 to $2,500 a month and up to $30,000 a year. We say, “Oh, it's just a bag of chips”, or whatever. My experience is that the bail system is no longer dealing with those people. Some people might call them small-time criminals, but their impact is profound. It's disproportionate. They take up innumerable resources, and they're no longer being referred to detention. Often, they're released at the scene.

Do you have any comments on that?

[Peter German]

I agree 100%. London Drugs on West Georgia Street in Vancouver is gone because they can't maintain that business. It's going to become a police training academy. There's an interesting irony in all of that.

It's definitely a problem in Vancouver, but it's not just in Vancouver. It's in Kelowna, Surrey, the suburbs, etc. Abbotsford would have the same thing. There's a very small number of prolific property offenders, and they have to be put in the same category as the violent offenders. Oftentimes, they're suffering from the same issues. These are not necessarily bad people. A lot of them are people with mental health issues, drug issues, addictions, etc., but the net result is what they cause on the streets, as you've indicated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Mr. German.

We'll now turn to MP Acan for six minutes, please.

[Sima Acan, Liberal, Oakville West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to thank you, Dr. German, for your service in the RCMP for over three decades. Having been deputy commissioner of the RCMP, you have certainly had a distinguished career, and it's a privilege to have you here, especially as you are an academician today.

As you know, we are studying the removal of foreign nationals with criminal records. The goal of this study is to understand and improve our ability to action those removals and the enforcement against visa overstays and even criminal inadmissibility.

In your testimony today, you highlighted the importance of the resources and the tools our law enforcement requires, some of which are included in Bill C-14, on bail reform, and Bill C-2, on stronger borders. Additionally, our government introduced Bill C-12, which is now in the Senate. Bill C-12 focuses on improving asylum claim processes and eligibility requirements to support the CBSA in removing individuals from Canada who are involved in criminality, including extortion.

As an academic and a lawyer, how would you evaluate the effectiveness of Bill C-12 in supporting the removal processes?

[Peter German]

First of all, thank you for your kind comments.

I don't profess to be an expert in the legislation under way in the Commons and the Senate, but anything directed at these issues is good.

The proof will be when the legislation is passed, has royal assent, is in force and we see the results on the street. All efforts in that direction are good, and it is nice to see attention being paid to this issue. It's been far too long in coming, but we're there now, so that's a good thing.

[Sima Acan, Liberal, Oakville West, ON]

To follow up, are there any legislative reforms you would recommend to us today?

[Peter German]

I'm not too sure I'm the right person for that. There are all sorts of recommendations that could be made. I would be reluctant to go further than I have gone in my comments, which are fairly general.

The RCMP, the CBSA and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police are definitely the experts in dealing with this. They can get into the minutiae.

I want to emphasize that process is very important. My fear with regard to the removals is that there are thousands of removals, but are we getting the right people? These are the people who don't want to be found because they're the ones with criminal records and so forth. It's very difficult. As I mentioned, we don't want to just put people on a police computer system and hope they get stopped in a traffic stop. We need to go after them.

[Sima Acan, Liberal, Oakville West, ON]

You have done extensive work regarding anti-money laundering in British Columbia. From your experience in the RCMP.... I understand that crime is often transnational and complex, which you also mentioned in your speech. In the context of your work, in some cases foreign persons are linked to and involved with transnational money laundering. Given this, could you speak to any legal challenges that are faced when individuals are linked to transnational crime and subject to a removal?

[Peter German]

We find that a lot of organized crime groups are ethnic-based. They operate out of their own diasporas. If you think about this, the problem is that if you are involved in criminal activity and you come to a country like Canada, you're not necessarily able to speak English well, so whom do you prey on? You prey on people within your own community and within your own diaspora. It's only after you become familiar with the language and with how things operate that you start to spread your wings. We've seen this with one organized crime group after another. They tend to start out being quite ethnically based, whether it's Iranian organized crime, Vietnamese organized crime or, as I always say, Caucasian Canadian organized crime, which is our biker gangs. They tend to start in their own little area and then they spread their wings.

I don't know if this answers your question.

[Sima Acan, Liberal, Oakville West, ON]

Do I have time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

You have one minute.

[Sima Acan, Liberal, Oakville West, ON]

Yes, you definitely answered that.

Following up on this, given that Bill C-12 strengthens Canada's anti-money laundering and anti-terrorist financing regime by enabling FINTRAC to share supervisory information with members of the financial institutions supervisory committee, would you say these measures enhance Canada's ability to identify federally regulated financial institutions that are involved in illicit financing?

[Peter German]

We've had a whole string of amendments to the proceeds of crime and money laundering legislation over a number of years, and it is getting strengthened over time, more and more.

I am very pleased by what we are seeing from FINTRAC now. They've put their big boy pants on, so to speak, and they're issuing fines. It's taken 25 years to get to this point, but they're doing it.

I think we're seeing, with the legislation in Bill C-12, as you've indicated, and with how the agencies are operating, that they are starting to take this seriously. It's because they have to, quite frankly. Money laundering is a huge issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, MP Acan.

Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. German, thank you very much for your testimony.

At the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, we are working to find solutions. In your presentation, you said that one of the solutions was to better fund the RCMP or the Canada Border Services Agency, for example, so that they would have the means to conduct investigations, so that there would be officers on the ground and so that information would be shared.

You know that the government is currently hiring 1,000 RCMP officers and 1,000 border services officers, but at the same time, it is making budget cuts to the RCMP, the agency and Correctional Service Canada, which is also difficult for the ecosystem that manages criminals, so to speak. So a foreign national who is well aware of Canada's shortcomings can take advantage of that. There are currently criminal foreign nationals in the country who have been charged, are awaiting trial and are subject to a removal order, but they cannot be found.

To avoid that, as soon as a foreign national is arrested, facing allegations and awaiting trial, could they be placed in preventive custody? Would that be a good solution?

[Peter German]

It's always a balance, isn't it? This is what I tried to stress with my comments: It would be nice if we could keep people in detention until their case was dealt with, because once they're out, you may not see them again. Certainly, you won't see the ones we're interested in again.

On the other hand, we have to balance this with fairness, the Charter of Rights and all the principles we believe in. Ultimately, it comes down to resources, having enough people to process them and prioritizing cases, making sure that those cases with high-risk individuals go to the top and are dealt with as quickly as possible so that you don't run into issues of fairness, charter rights and so forth.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

If a foreign national commits a violent crime on our soil, they should be tried here and receive the sentence they deserve. Some members think that, as soon as a person commits a violent crime, they should automatically be sent back to their country. Personally, I think that, if a person commits a crime in Quebec or Canada, they should be tried and incarcerated here, and then sent back to their country of origin after serving their sentence.

Do you agree with the principle that foreign nationals should be tried under our laws and serve their sentence here before being removed?