Evidence of meeting #28 for Public Safety and National Security in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was zealand.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Watson  General Manager, Immigration Compliance and Investigations, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment of New Zealand

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Thank you for attending meeting number 28 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Pursuant to the Standing Orders of the House of Commons, the committee is meeting on its study of Canada's ability to remove foreign nationals with a criminal record.

I would like to give a warm welcome to the witness, who is from New Zealand. We have many reasons to be very grateful to him. He is Steve Watson, general manager, immigration compliance and investigations, New Zealand's Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment.

I believe the sound checks have already been done and were successful, so I will give the floor to you, Mr. Watson, for five minutes of opening remarks.

Steve Watson General Manager, Immigration Compliance and Investigations, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment of New Zealand

Thank you, and good afternoon or good morning, as it is here. Kia ora koutou, which means “warm greetings” in the language of New Zealand's indigenous people.

Thank you for the lovely introduction.

As said, my name is Steve Watson, and I lead the part of New Zealand's immigration system that deals with removals and criminal prosecutions for criminal offending against New Zealand's immigration law, including migrant exploitation, human trafficking and people smuggling.

Today I want to talk to you about one aspect of my role that you've asked for information on, which is deportations and removals. Specifically, today I want to provide you with insight into how New Zealand manages foreign national offenders who are liable for removal.

New Zealand's deportation turnaround legislation and processes that apply to the removal of foreign national offenders are unique to our country, so they sometimes won't be aligned or it's not possible to do a linear comparison with Canada's processes, but hopefully I can give you some assistance.

We have a number of information-sharing processes with other government agencies, which I'll outline further in the presentation, that you may or may not have in your own jurisdiction. We have sharing agreements with agencies such as the New Zealand Police, our corrections or prison service and our Ministry of Justice.

I'm going to keep today's presentation reasonably high level, and I won't reference specific legislation or the details of those agreements, but I make the offer to you to talk further about this or provide any further information that you might require subsequent to this hearing.

The immigration compliance team is responsible for a range of immigration enforcement work. That includes managing returns cases and investigating visa breaches by migrants, employers and educational institutions that look after foreign students. We have a low-level compliance function that gives infringement notices or minor prosecutions to employers who breach the Immigration Act, and we monitor migrants in the community who are currently on active criminal charges or on reporting conditions. We also do a lot of joint work with other agencies in terms of the wider harm to New Zealand's communities.

New Zealand's immigration system, like many, is founded on the expectation that migrants must meet entry requirements. When they're here, they must comply with their visa conditions, be of good character and not commit criminal offences whilst here in our country. This includes a clear expectation that people leave New Zealand when they no longer hold a lawful basis to remain, so they must leave before the expiration of their visa.

New Zealand prioritizes the removal of foreign national offenders who are liable for deportation and also those migrants who present a high risk to our communities. Criminal offending is our number one priority.

I'll say little bit about the term “removals”. It describes all processes for requiring foreign nationals, who have no right to remain in New Zealand, to leave. There are three main streams of deportation. For residents who have committed serious offences, we can cancel their residence permission. Temporary visa holders such as students, visitors or workers who commit criminal offences will be made liable for deportation. Then there are persons who have overstayed or remained in New Zealand past the expiry of their visa.

All of these attract appeal rights, right through to a judicial review at our Supreme Court. Not everyone avails themselves of those appeal rights, but we do obviously have to respect that.

Most of our deportations are around criminal liability and are based on bad character.

We also have a role in the compliance team of turning around people at the border who've been deemed inadmissible because they have criminal convictions overseas and, if we find out about that upon arrival, we will detain them and turn them around.

We do have a graduated compliance model so our responses are proportionate to the harm, risk-based and tailored to the individual's circumstances. While some non-compliance is resolved through education, facilitation or voluntary departure, cases involving criminality, a bad carrot, or refusal to engage are treated by higher priority. Like in many countries around the world, there is high public interest in New Zealand in migrant offending.

In terms of custody and detention, most of our low-priority cases are resolved through community-based limits on movements, such as reporting conditions. We have recently passed legislation where we can do electronic monitoring for some criminal offenders in the community. For our serious cases, we make every effort to deport directly from prison or immediately following the court hearing.

In terms of detention, we have a limited four-hour power of detention immediately after arrest of a foreign national who's liable for deportation. We then take them to a police station where a decision is made. We have 96 hours to decide whether to detain them on a warrant of commitment, which is sought through the court, or whether to release them on conditions. The 96 hours also allows us time to book travel, where appropriate, to remove people from the country.

In terms of information sharing, all foreign nationals who are under investigation by the police, are charged with a criminal offence or have been convicted by the court are of interest to Immigration New Zealand for the reasons I've outlined. We expect visitors to our country to obey the law the same as we do for our own people. We and the police have a data-matching system. It has some problems, mostly around identity. We do have to validate some identity. It's just a straight name-to-name match, so we do have to do a little bit of work to validate that. The police will tell us of all foreign nationals they're aware of who are charged with criminal offences or have been sentenced to imprisonment. It captures most foreign national offenders who commit serious offences.

Where a person is on a community-based sentence, or is not sentenced to a term of imprisonment, we work very closely with our corrections and probation service so that we can deport them at the earliest opportunity. This means that as soon as they have served the minimum part of their sentence in New Zealand, we would put them on a plane and return them home.

I'll quickly run through our priorities. Priority one is prison releases, criminal offenders and national security matters. There are four subcategories under priority one: those who threaten national security, which is a joint piece of work we do with our security agencies; people who have been granted residence but who have committed a serious enough offence to make them liable for deportation; prison releases and home detention sentences; and people who've committed visa fraud.

Our second priority is a tier down from that. It's around people whose offending shows that they have adverse character issues. It may be minor assaults, street violence or a drunken charge. That's just a small snapshot of the offending where people are not sentenced to imprisonment, but they demonstrate poor character sufficient that we would want to revoke their visas and deport them from New Zealand.

That concludes my opening introduction. I would be really happy to take questions from members.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Thank you for that excellent introduction.

We turn to MP Lloyd for six minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Parkland, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Watson, for being our witness all the way from New Zealand today.

Does New Zealand maintain a public web page where they provide information about criminals who are wanted for deportation?

3:45 p.m.

General Manager, Immigration Compliance and Investigations, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment of New Zealand

Steve Watson

No, we don't have that facility at all. In some serious cases, we may use the media or put discreet media articles on our website asking for specific cohorts of people, but we do not name individuals.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Parkland, AB

Is there a reason for that?

3:45 p.m.

General Manager, Immigration Compliance and Investigations, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment of New Zealand

Steve Watson

I'm not sure of the reason. There is privacy legislation that protects the identity of some migrants, but for those who have committed a criminal offence, we may name them. It normally takes a form such as, “This person has been convicted in the court, and will be subject to deportation”, but we don't specifically name the people we're actively looking for, generally because it's a small country and it may drive them further underground.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Parkland, AB

Something we've heard during this study is that foreign governments can be very uncooperative in some cases when we're trying to return their citizens. They'll use things like not providing travel documents.

Is this an experience that New Zealand has had, and have you been able to find a good workaround?

3:45 p.m.

General Manager, Immigration Compliance and Investigations, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment of New Zealand

Steve Watson

Yes, it is an experience we have had, and it changes depending on the geopolitical situation, of course.

I really want to be at pains to say that we have no issues with our Five Eyes friends. At the moment, we're having problems with the Vietnamese in terms of getting travel documents, but mostly we have good relationships with our consular partners in New Zealand. Whilst there sometimes can be delays, generally we will ultimately get a travel document. It generally depends on the relationships between the countries. Sometimes there can be diplomatic tension that plays out in difficulty getting travel documents.

We're a small country, and we have really good connections. The other thing that we leverage is our Five Eyes partners, who may sometimes have better connections than us.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Parkland, AB

In 2024, there was a notable case in Canada—I'm not sure if you're aware—where an ISIS-inspired attack against Toronto's Jewish community was foiled. One of the alleged terrorists was able to evade immigration screening and claimed asylum in Canada in 2018 despite there being public videos circulated of this alleged terrorist participating in ISIS propaganda videos in Iraq.

I wonder if you can tell us about New Zealand's screening. Do you have an effective screening system that allows you to find cases like this and prevent them from getting visas to travel to New Zealand?

3:50 p.m.

General Manager, Immigration Compliance and Investigations, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment of New Zealand

Steve Watson

Yes, we do. We have a very good information-sharing relationship with our Five Eyes partners. We work quite closely with our national security agencies, which will notify us of anyone who is on any watch-lists or is a person of interest to them. We factor that into our visa decision-making.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Parkland, AB

Is there anything specific that you think New Zealand does better than other Five Eyes partners?

3:50 p.m.

General Manager, Immigration Compliance and Investigations, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment of New Zealand

Steve Watson

Not specifically, no. The information sharing with our security agencies, because the enforcement community is small, is done on a relationship basis. We're very quick and agile in terms of sharing information.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Parkland, AB

I only have a bit of time left, but I noticed in researching some of your commentary that you've talked about the exploitation of migrant communities by organized crime—scamming these people, breaching their visa conditions.

Can you talk about effective ways in which New Zealand has protected vulnerable migrants from exploitation by organized crime?

3:50 p.m.

General Manager, Immigration Compliance and Investigations, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment of New Zealand

Steve Watson

We have a couple of visa products. A person who is certified as a victim of human trafficking can be given a trafficking visa to remain here, to escape the situation and to give evidence or not. The primary purpose of that visa is the protection of that person, to allow them to access welfare services and the like.

For people who report exploitation by their employer, we have a fast-track process to put them on what is called a migrant exploitation protection visa, which is an open work visa for six months, which allows them to move from the exploitative employer, find a new employer and get their immigration pathway back on track. The principal reason for that visa is for the person to escape the current exploitative situation. That also allows us to work with that person, to gather information from them, to see if they want to be a witness or even just provide information that allows us to take action against that employer. If we prosecute an employer for migrant exploitation, or even for some lesser charges, we can put them on a stand-down list to stop them from employing further migrants for six months.

The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos

Thank you, MP Lloyd.

Mr. Ramsay, you have the floor for six minutes.

Jacques Ramsay Liberal La Prairie—Atateken, QC

Kia ora, Mr. Watson.

Thank you so much for taking time for this.

Are you in Wellington?

3:50 p.m.

General Manager, Immigration Compliance and Investigations, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment of New Zealand

Jacques Ramsay Liberal La Prairie—Atateken, QC

My favourite song is Wellington, by the Mutton Birds. It goes, “I wish I was in Wellington”.

3:50 p.m.

General Manager, Immigration Compliance and Investigations, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment of New Zealand

Steve Watson

I think they're performing on the weekend, actually.

Jacques Ramsay Liberal La Prairie—Atateken, QC

I'd like to know if you maintain clear data to know the number of illegal foreign nationals and the number of illegal or foreign nationals who have offended? Is that the sort of statistic that you maintain?

3:50 p.m.

General Manager, Immigration Compliance and Investigations, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment of New Zealand

Steve Watson

Yes, it is. Once a year, we produce what is called an estimate of people who are unlawfully in New Zealand. It has to be an estimate, because it's a snapshot in time. It was about 21,000 people last year.

In terms of criminal offending, we have a very accurate database, because every piece of information that's shared with us by the court system, the police or the other criminal jurisdictions is recorded in our case management files, and they are actively recorded under our priority one.... We have a very good list of everything that is reported to us. As I said, the reporting is not infallible, but it's about 99% reliable.

Jacques Ramsay Liberal La Prairie—Atateken, QC

Is there a minimum sentencing where the offenders become eligible for being expelled?

3:55 p.m.

General Manager, Immigration Compliance and Investigations, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment of New Zealand

Steve Watson

Any temporary migrant who is sentenced to imprisonment will be made liable for deportation. For any resident who is sentenced to imprisonment, there is a kind of scale by how long they've been here. If a person has been here for 10 years, they're well settled, and they are sentenced to a minor term of imprisonment, for example, and may not be deported. In terms of the lower level offending, we do have some discretion for very minor offences like speeding tickets or things that are not against public order. We may, on a special case review, allow the person to remain, but it's on a case-by-case basis, and there's a little bit of discretion in there.

Jacques Ramsay Liberal La Prairie—Atateken, QC

One of the things you alluded to was that people were being expelled as soon as they finished their term in prison. I'm assuming that you have due process before being expelled, so would that mean that those procedures would take place during the time the person is in jail? That is something interesting that we may be able to learn from you.