Science and Research Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2024

[Mark Fisher]

In terms of whatever format of plastic you're looking at today, there is a means to deal with that material. Typically, right now, through our mechanical recycling or our traditional recycling systems, it's your core materials—your number one plastics, your number twos—that have the greatest value. That's why they're being recycled and recovered the most. Even for the other types of materials or the ones that are harder to recycle—the flexibles, the films—there are solutions for managing that material. That's the first point I would make.

In terms of the material that's getting lost to our landfills, as I mentioned, an estimated 12 million tons, U.S. tons, are finding their way into landfills. That's because, for whatever reason, consumers at home who have access to a program at their curbside are inadvertently or purposely putting it into the garbage stream, and it's ending up in our landfills. There are definitely solutions to recover and direct that material to reuse opportunities as recycled content in new packaging.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

There's too much packaging as well. I think we could all agree about the junk that comes in the mail and everything else.

[Mark Fisher]

For sure.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

The municipalities shouldn't have to bear the responsibility for this. However, are there municipalities that are able to filter out the microplastics in their sewer or storm sewer systems so that they don't end up in the creeks, rivers, lakes and streams?

[Mark Fisher]

Yes. Again, it's a combination of solutions that we need to adopt.

As I mentioned before, extended producer responsibility is going to be a significant change. In terms of other measures, the number one item that we pick up on our streets, on our beaches and in our waterways is cigarette butts. I'm not sure how we're going to change that behaviour of flicking your butts out onto the street. We are working with companies and municipalities to install stormwater filtration systems, called litter traps and gutter bins, that can be easily removed and that catch this material when storm events happen that wash this material down into a drain.

These are systems that allow us to educate people about what's happening. I'm not sure that every municipality can put a filter into a drain in their municipality. It just wouldn't be practical.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Yes, that's fair enough.

Jason Taylor, if you're still there, you sound like the recycling man, the guy with the ideas. What about this plastic furniture, children's toys that the grandparents buy that the kids don't need, and on and on. Are there ways to recycle these into something useful, or are they a writeoff and go straight to the landfill?

[Jason Taylor]

In the U.S., I believe most plastic chairs are made out of polyethylene. That polyethylene can definitely be.... It's a low temperature. I'm sure you maybe sat in one during the summer, and it just squashed on you. It doesn't take a lot of heat to melt that down and to form it into another shape.

I'm sorry, but I don't have the company's name. This young fellow from Castlegar moved to the Canmore area in Alberta and set up a way to heat up the plastic and squash it down into sheet goods with a fibrous material in between to basically make plastic panelling or plastic sheet goods.

The plastic is with us forever. How do we reuse it and recycle it into other more long-term forms of use, rather than a plastic chair that lasts a few summers and then basically degrades to the point, just from UV exposure, that it then becomes brittle? Most of that plastic can be recycled or reutilized in different forms.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you. We're well over the time.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I have more time yet, for sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

No, you're a minute over, actually. He spoke for a long time. That's a nice try. It was the witness who was a minute over time. I'm sorry.

Now we will turn to MP Longfield for five minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

This is a really interesting conversation. Thank you to the witnesses for giving us your expertise.

I want to start with Mr. Fisher on regulations. The disconnect between provincial regulations and federal regulations was discussed earlier with Madame Pietrosel. In the Great Lakes, we also have to worry about the United States. The Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment, from across Canada and from the provincial ministries, has agreed on getting to zero plastic waste by 2030. Regulations have to play a huge part in that.

Could you maybe comment briefly on the role of international regulations as well as national regulations in achieving that goal?

[Mark Fisher]

Thank you for the question.

It's critical, if we're going to really enable that systems change, to transition from a linear economy in which we take, make and dispose of materials to a circular one in which we have the value of this material, the chemistry of the materials, circulating in the economy for as long as possible at their highest value. That is going to require a significant systems change. That is one part regulatory, another part behavioural, and the third part is infrastructure.

On the regulatory side, to your point, the zero plastic waste strategy doesn't mean zero plastics; it means zero plastic waste. The CCME strategy that has been adopted by Conservative premiers, by Liberal premiers and obviously by this government, has really set a pathway. That's why you're seeing extended producer responsibility being adopted right across the country, such as in Ontario and Quebec. B.C. has had it for a number of years.

We're also starting to see extended producer responsibility at the state level in the U.S. There's a new U.S. bill that's been introduced in Congress. All of these things, when you put them together, are more or less aligned. That's going to create the regulatory certainty that you're asking for in terms of labelling, targets around recycled content in products and what have you.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

We are in an integrated market with the United States, so if Canada, for whatever reasons, decides we don't need a regulatory system, how does that impact our relations with the businesses in the United States?

[Mark Fisher]

As you know, there are a lot of materials, including plastic resins and even recyclable materials, that are moving back and forth across that border, either for manufacturing or for recycling and final disposal. We have to think about this as an integrated marketplace, particularly in the Great Lakes, because most of our trade and commerce is north-south; it's not across the country.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you. It's great to have an imperative that the Great Lakes area, as you said, is such a critical region in the world, in terms of trade, and to have effective regulations on plastics to get rid of the nanoplastics and the microplastics is critical.

I'd like to go over to Quebec, to Madame Pietrosel.

Thank you for your testimony.

On the regulation disconnects, if you have information you can provide to the committee, please do, so that when we're doing our recommendations, we can make sure we cover off these disconnects.

Can you briefly mention one or two that are very important for us to be aware of?

[Marina Pietrosel]

The deadlines have put in place different rates of recycling or valorization of the materials. The dates are not there to let the producer have better containers and packaging.

Second, I would like to go back a little bit on legislation, because we were talking about toys.... I'm speaking English for quite a while.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

You're doing great. I have very limited time, so please do continue. If there are regulations on toys—

[Marina Pietrosel]

There are no regulations on toys, chairs and things like that. The products for long-term utilization are not in our EPR program, so—

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I do have a question for Mr. Taylor from Selkirk College.

I think it's important for us to highlight the importance of colleges in the innovation ecosystem and make sure that colleges are included in any type of research funding the federal government comes through with.

[Jason Taylor]

Absolutely. It's such an imperative thing, and it has been a great opportunity for us to incorporate that educational pathway for students as well. The NSERC funding for TACs is an example of something that could be in danger in the future.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

We need to make sure that it isn't. You're providing our future green designers, so thank you for all the work you're doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you.

Now we'll turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas for two and a half minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to continue with Ms. Pietrosel.

It's important to come back to the issue of coordination, with respect to the federal government's decision to ban plastics in 2030.

Can you go back to that specifically? You mentioned a 2025 deadline. Tell me what you think isn't feasible.

[Marina Pietrosel]

I'm going to answer a bit of what you asked me earlier, which is what the federal government can do.

First, invest in innovation to design materials that are recyclable and recycled.

Second, invest in the equipment needed for recycling, which will foster the emergence of local markets in each province. That will result in a better economy and a better circularity of materials. Not all materials are integrated into the circular economy. In fact, very few are. Investment is still needed. Without investment, we won't be able to get the materials we need.

I'll now come back to your other question. I'm sorry, could you remind me what that was?

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

It was about the 2025 and 2030 timelines for zero plastic waste.