Science and Research Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2024

[Dr. Steve Allen]

Areca palm, for example, is just palm leaf that falls off the palm naturally. They press it into the shape of a paper plate. It's completely compostable. It has no glues, unlike many of the other materials like that.

Also, yes, there are glass, metal and things like that, which we've always used. We know what they are. We know how to handle them. We know how to recycle them. Glass doesn't need to be smashed and re-formed into a new bottle. It can be washed. We know how to do that.

It's 2024. I think it's time that we gave up the plastic dream. It's becoming a nightmare.

I mean, in my work, I'm here in the north Arctic measuring plastic that could have come from Canada. It could have come from South Australia. I don't know. It's really hard to prove where it came from, because there's so much of it.

It really is a depressing job.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I think we read that you argue that removing plastic waste at the source—and I think you're starting to get into that—is key before it enters the sea. Let's talk a little about the sea and the ocean.

I come from Nova Scotia, and it's all sea around my province. Can you explain that a little further for us?

[Dr. Steve Allen]

I actually studied oysters, mussels and lobsters from Halifax and from around Nova Scotia, and I found plastic in all of them, so we have it everywhere. When plastic winds up in the sea, it comes back out of the sea and into the air. That's where plastic can leapfrog over borders and over land masses, and it can reach up into the free troposphere and can travel around the globe in just a couple of weeks.

There's no “away” for plastics. Shipping plastic out to Asia to be recycled is just.... It's crazy. You're just going to get the plastic back in your air and in your food. All it does is set up an illegal waste trade, and we already have a problem with that. Interpol has a great report on it, and Canada is actually a part of that, sending waste to Asia and getting a fake certificate back to say that it was recycled, and it becomes part of your recycle quota.

That's where I think your 2030 pledge is irresponsible, because it's not going to increase the recycling. All it's going to do is increase the illegal waste trade.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

What else can we do as legislators, or what else are you recommending besides what you've already recommended? Is there anything else that we can do?

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

You need to regulate the industry.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Regulation....

[Dr. Steve Allen]

You guys have the power. You can do a lot more than I can. All I'm trying to do is clean up the mess, but you guys can actually regulate this and stop it.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you.

We'll now turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes, please.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to welcome the witnesses who are with us today.

Mr. Allen, a number of witnesses who have come to talk to us about their concerns about biodegradable plastics have told us that, at the end of the day, they aren't really biodegradable because they release microplastics as they degrade.

I'd like to hear your comments on that.

[Dr. Steve Allen]

I'm sorry. The translation failed. I didn't get any....

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

That happens, don't worry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

At the bottom of your screen, have you indicated that you want English?

[Dr. Steve Allen]

Yes, I did choose English.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

You weren't getting.... I was hearing it.

[Dr. Steve Allen]

I'm not sure what went on there. It says “English” on it, but I'm not getting a translation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

I'm sorry. I'll start your time—

[Dr. Steve Allen]

Maybe if it's very simple French....

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

—again if you could ask the question again, because we were hearing the translation fine here. We're just doing a test here in the room.

Are you able to hear English now? They're doing a test for you.

[Dr. Steve Allen]

I can hear the voice, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Okay, that's great.

Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas, would you start from the top with your question?

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Okay. Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't usually like to repeat myself, but this time it's for a good reason. I will be able to express myself in one of the country's two official languages, in theory.

Mr. Allen, a number of witnesses who have spoken to us of their concerns about biodegradable plastics have told us that, at the end of the day, they aren't really biodegradable because they release microplastics as they degrade.

I'd like to hear your comments on that.

[Dr. Steve Allen]

Okay, thank you.

Biodegradable plastics don't degrade in nature. We've shown that. It's scientifically proven. Basically, you can have a plastic bag in nature for three years and it will still function as a plastic bag. They don't degrade. Chemically, they are just as dangerous as other plastics. It's actually been shown that some of the biodegradables are more dangerous. They break down into smaller particles, but we don't have sufficient regulation and we don't have sufficient studies yet to show what those tiny particles that they break down into can do to humans and animals.

This is a big problem. Most of the studies will stop at, say, 20 micrometers. That's small by most people's standards, but when you start to look at organisms, that's where it becomes food. That can kill an animal. The difference between it being 20 micrometers and one nanometre is unknown through most of these plastics. The industry is not interested in looking at it.

This is something that the government really needs to step up on to actually make sure that these plastics degrade properly, not just “we can't see it anymore”. The ISO definition of “we can't see it, so therefore it's gone” is the definition of putting your head in the sand. We know the plastic is there. I know it, because it's part of my research. I'd like to see the Canadian government regulate this. Ask the scientists. Regulate what the scientists tell you that you need to look at and not what industry says.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

According to all credible, independent scientific sources, plastic manufactured items have been considered a toxic substance under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. The scientific literature has proved that they are, but some people still have doubts.

Can plastic be toxic?

[Dr. Steve Allen]

Absolutely. It's absolutely a toxic material. We've shown this. Thousands of studies on all sorts of biota, small creatures, have shown that this is toxic. Karen Wirsig even pointed out to you that it was recently found in human heart plaque. Now, they're not saying there's an actual causation here, but what they're saying is that it shouldn't be there.

It doesn't take much of a genius to work out that if you put a small particle into a brain, it can cause damage—any particle. I mean, we're talking about PM10 and PM2.5, the same as the carbon pollution that we know is killing eight million people a year. Plastics is in a similar size range and can carry chemicals that it comes into contact with and chemicals that are in the plastic.

We're not talking about the nice safe ones; we're talking about the biggest plastics, such as BPA and things like that.