Science and Research Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Now we'll turn to MP Longfield for six minutes, please.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I'm going to start off my questions with Dr. Young. It's great to see you again.

There's tremendous work going on with the Canadian Brain Research Strategy. It's doing some work that's very similar to what the capstone is doing in terms of bringing researchers together from across Canada, but the capstone would go a little deeper into other areas.

I was at a lab at the University of Guelph this morning that was studying fish. They've just received some federal funding, $1.5 million over two and a half years, to look at Pacific salmon and the effects of bitumen on salmon. Also, while I was in the lab, I saw them looking at the brains of deepwater fish that had a way of regenerating themselves when they were damaged, and taking the research from these deepwater fish and converting it into some stem cell research that could possibly find its way into medical applications.

We don't know where some of the research goes, but going from fish to humans, or looking at the cultural effects of the loss of salmon on the indigenous communities, could you talk about the interrelationships that could be bridged through the capstone?

[Dr. Jennie Young]

I think that you're absolutely right. We don't know where the research will go, and to really understand and to build those interrelations we need a structure in place. I think that part of what you're saying about how it will go deeper than just the strategy we've built is because we need to bring that knowledge into practical application and it needs to be a continuous cycle. It's no longer the traditional model where you have discovery and then it gets applied. To have this happen a lot faster, especially in this rapidly developing field and just how much faster research happens now, we need structure, infrastructure and training in place.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I can just imagine that, with that structure in place, the work you've already done over the last few years at the Canadian Brain Research Strategy would be accelerated as well.

[Dr. Jennie Young]

Absolutely, because right now now we've been able to bring all of these different stakeholders, including from innovation, entrepreneurship and industry, together in all of these different fields, but we need support to make our ideas happen, to implement the strategy.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Great. In particular, thanks for the work you're doing with Parkinson Canada and Brain Canada on neurodegenerative disease. There are thirty-five people a day are being diagnosed every day with Parkinson's, ALS and on, so it's crisis management as well.

I want to turn my attention over to Ms. Morin on the social sciences.

Some of the research going on around the brain also includes the socialization that sometimes is affected by brain disease. There are things like studying mime. The University of Guelph is doing studies on mime. Why would you want to do that? Mime helps motor control when people have loss of control. There are studies on things like yoga and relaxation and what happens in terms of trying to manage the stress of medical diseases.

On the importance of social sciences, in terms of the capstone, could you drill into that just a bit more for us, because it really does go across disciplines?

[Karine Morin]

Indeed, when we think of social sciences and humanities, we like to think of the importance of research to people, cultures, institutions and social relations.

You also heard from Chad Gaffield at the start of this study, and he likes to simplify it by saying that it's the study of human thought and human behaviour. What were they thinking? Why did they do that?

Now, we can go about asking ourselves those questions on a daily basis, and we come up with quick answers to be able to move on, but when these researchers dig deep into these issues, they do so with rigour in their methods so that, even though they may take non-obvious topics, in a way, it's to hone those skills of finding the right documents that are going to be pertinent, or, if you're doing qualitative study, talking to the right people who are going to be representative of the issue, or, if you're doing a survey quantitatively, making sure you're asking the right questions.

As much as you may have very precise, complicated and perhaps non-obvious research questions, the skills sets, certainly in the graduate students involved in the research, become really relevant.

In the context of mission-driven research, I think I've just highlighted what will be important. What is the mission looking at? What is the information they will look at? Who will be engaged in that mission research? What questions will be asked?

In a way, the framing of mission-driven research should come from a social science humanity framing in many instances. Not in all, but in many instances, there is a leading role, I believe, for social sciences humanities research to take on some of the pressing problems that we're trying to tackle or even the emerging technologies like artificial intelligence and that interface with humanity. Those are some examples.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Absolutely, or the U.S. election.... There's a lot of misunderstanding of what happened and how it happened, and we'll be peeling through that for a number of years to come.

Thank you very much for your testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you.

Solving that is probably beyond the scope of this committee, but it's interesting, yes.

Now we will turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Maltais, how does Acfas see its role in the development of the new capstone organization in relation to the diversity of research forms and types?

[Martin Maltais]

I'll ask Ms. Montreuil to answer that question.

[Sophie Montreuil, Executive Director, Acfas – Association francophone pour le savoir]

Thank you, Madam Chair and Mr. Blanchette‑Joncas.

Acfas responded to the consultation hastily launched last June by the three federal research funding agencies. We consulted our community and submitted a brief that addresses the issues raised during the consultation. Our submission today is slightly different from the dozen or so detailed recommendations contained in last summer's brief.

On October 17, we read the consultation report entitled “What we heard”. Despite the tight deadlines, the scientific community rose to the occasion with a number of briefs, presentations and testimonies. The report clearly explains that the scientific community agrees with the creation of the capstone organization. In addition to this agreement, the community pointed out specific elements to watch out for during the creation of the capstone organization and the move to merge the three councils. A number of areas for vigilance concerning the entity that will set up the capstone organization have been discussed today, as they surely were during the preliminary hearings.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Montreuil.

Mr. Maltais, Acfas spoke of the creation of an external advisory panel on the creation and dissemination of scientific information in French. The figure discussed is $8.5 million over five years. We know that science in French is in decline and even heading for extinction.

Do you think that these amounts are enough to really address the urgency of the situation?

[Martin Maltais]

First, we welcome this first step. We're satisfied with it and we're involved in this panel. However, we can already see the need to take things a step further. All our colleagues across the country must understand that 22% to 23% of Canada's population speaks French. To maintain the same standard of living, we must be able to pursue science in French as well. In this respect, the structural inequity between the English‑speaking and French‑speaking communities across the country poses a major economic issue. In order to generate a satisfactory return, francophones across the country must expend 30% to 40% more energy to carve out a place for themselves in English‑speaking circles and to publish in English. This comes at an economic cost when resources can be put in place to boost science in French.

The other point to consider is that an equivalent science in the country's two main cultures opens up other horizons for Canada on the international stage. These horizons are currently scientifically under‑exploited by the Canadian government. There could be greater commitments. This would encourage granting agencies to ask the following types of questions. How can funding be allocated to ensure a fair representation of the French fact and of scientific activity in the French language? This is a key question.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Maltais, we know that structural inequalities currently affect access to higher education for francophones in Quebec and the rest of Canada. These structural inequalities or imbalances in the education system are caused by a lack of funding for francophone institutions across Canada, both in Quebec and in francophone minority communities. The data is clear. Francophone institutions across Canada have been underfunded for the past 20 years.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

[Martin Maltais]

When it comes to underfunded francophone institutions across the country, the Government of Canada has clear research obligations that deserve attention. A set of measures has already been proposed in recent months as part of the reports submitted. Ms. Montreuil had started to work on this issue.

Ms. Montreuil, do you have anything to add?

[Sophie Montreuil]

Let me quickly add that Acfas has submitted briefs to various committees, including yours.

For the past two years, the Government of Canada has been working hard on the issue of science in French. Everything is documented. The needs are there and the solutions exist. When creating the capstone organization, it's important to avoid starting from scratch. The consultations have been carried out and the solutions exist. Under part VII of the Official Languages Act, all departments and agencies must now be asked to take positive and proactive measures when creating a new entity such as the capstone organization.

The government is creating the organization at the right time, even though consultations on all aspects, including funding and publication, have been under way for at least two years.

The work is done. There isn't any excuse.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Ms. Montreuil, you said that it's well documented. According to my data, on average, 50% of the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

That's your time. You'll have time in the next round to finish that.

Thank you.

We will now turn to MP Blaney for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to ask my first question to Dr. Young.

In your response to consultations, you said, “The unique mandates, independent decision-making processes, and funding priorities aligned with specific research domains of each granting council, including CIHR’s institute model, must be preserved.”

How do you balance this need for autonomy with the capstone's coordinating role?

[Dr. Jennie Young]

I think it's really perfect to be able to find that balance because we do need to focus our investment on some of the really big problems that require all these different disciplines to work together. We can't just expect it to happen naturally. We need to work with government and to understand the pressing issues impacting Canadians today. We then have to work together and bring everybody's efforts together to do that. Again, that requires support, infrastructure, personnel and training for people to do that.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that.

I often make a joke in my constituency about how we need a ministry of connection. I see the same sort of idea where things are happening and people are not talking to each other. They relate to one another, but there's no focus or coordination that allows those things to come together in a beautiful way to really create solutions. It's like that connection part is really missing.

You talk a lot about bringing the linkages between basic research, clinical research and research commercialization for stronger health and economic outcomes. We heard from the last people testifying around the importance of working with industry. However, we've seen what's happened in some cases when the relationship between science and industry becomes a little too close.

I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts about how we balance all of these multiple needs and make sure that there is clear accountability as we're moving forward in these programs and methods.

[Dr. Jennie Young]

I apologize. I didn't understand what you meant by science and industry being too close.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Well, I'm just thinking of SDTC. I'm sorry, my mind's a little bit connected with what's happening in the media, as well as here in the House. I think that's an important warning sign of things happening, it falls apart and then all the good work that's happening dissipates because there aren't clear processes about the guidelines and how they work.

As I see this moving forward. I hear what the other folks who were testifying and what you're testifying about, which is about bringing things together so that it's actually a practical application. As a representative from rural communities, I know that working with industry locally is key to really making solutions.

I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts about how you balance out all of these needs and how the capstone would be able to do that. What kind of methods would it need to put in place?