Science and Research Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 110 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Science and Research.

Before we begin, I ask all in-person participants to read the guidelines written on the updated cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents, and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. You will also notice a QR code on the card that links to a short awareness video, which, obviously, I don't want you to watch at the present time, because I don't know where it came from.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

I would like to remind all members of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. For those participating by video conference, and I think we might have some in the next panel, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic. Please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For interpretation, for those on Zoom, you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either floor, English or French audio. Thank you all for your co-operation.

Before we move into the formal portion of the meeting I want to give you an update on our witness requests. We now have confirmation from both of our ministers that they will be appearing shortly after the winter break. Minister Champagne is confirmed for the second week—just a moment, please let me finish—and Minister Holland said, “In the new year.” As we know, our dates for our meetings will probably change, so we don't know the exact date, but that's the commitment.

Mr. Tochor, you had your hand raised.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Yes. I don't think that's acceptable for the committee. We gave them how many weeks already? It's holding up this committee's ability to do its work. The Liberals are hiding ministers from this committee and from answering questions that we need answers to. It's not acceptable that they're going to take the winter off and come back in the spring to present those answers. We need answers today for Canadians. I believe this is a stalling tactic being deployed here, and I'm very interested to hear the rest of the members' views on this tactic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Mr. Longfield, I believe you have your hand up.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I think that, given the season we're in, with supplementary estimates, it's.... Thank you to the clerk and chair for finding some time in the ministers' schedules once we're through estimates and the other things that are drawing them into other committees. It's unfortunate that we can't see them sooner, but at least we know what we're dealing with now. Thanks for the update.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Are there any other comments?

That seems to be the first available date. I do know that the minister is anxious to come, but he's called, as you indicated, before other committees as well. As we all know, we're running out of actual dates.

Go ahead, Mr. Kitchen.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate that.

I have a question. What we're dealing with here is that we asked the ministers to come and are continually asking them to show, such that we can hear about what's going on. The excuse has always been that, “Well, capstone hasn't been determined yet.” We need to find out...input from the minister so that the minister can actually respond to capstone. That's the purpose of the discussions. It's so that the minister can hear from witnesses and from us on issues about capstone, yet the minister's going to wait until the new year to come back and speak to us. That's not acceptable.

The minister shouldn't be speaking to us: We should be speaking to the minister, and the fact that the ministers are saying they're not coming until such a date.... We don't even know when that date is, because (a) we don't have a time frame as to when our meetings will be, whether they'll be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday. Who knows? However, the reality is that we have ministers who should be here, because we...and they're delaying the aspect such that we can't deal with this, which then says that they already pre-arranged what capstone is about, which is not acceptable to this committee. It's very upsetting to hear that. We're supposed to be having input into this, and we're not getting any whatsoever, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Mr. Kitchen, Minister Champagne has confirmed for the week of February 3. As you know, the dates for committees change after a break, so we don't know on which days of the week we'll be meeting, but he has confirmed that he will attend that week. That's his first availability. He is attending other committees in the meantime.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Madam Chair, February 3 is the date.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

It's the week of.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

He has nothing else during that week? All of a sudden a minister of that level can say I've got a whole week off after we come back to the House. How is that acceptable?

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

He's slotted that he'll make himself available during our committee meetings that week. We will have two committee meetings, presumably.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

What if the minister gets called away and is sent off somewhere else? How are we to deal with it then? We'll get another excuse for, oh, I can't make it, will we?

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

On a point of order, we have witnesses in the room. Could we move to witnesses, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Yes. Can I have agreement around the table that we'll proceed with our witnesses?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you.

We will proceed with our meeting, then, as scheduled.

I'm sorry. I have one comment quickly.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Madam Chair, I just want to confirm one thing with the clerk.

Have the other meeting dates before the holiday break been proposed to the two ministers? These dates would be November 28 and December 3, 5, 10 and 12 and even December 17 and possibly December 19.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

I'm sorry, I missed the first part of what you said, because I didn't have the translation. I can say we offered all of those dates, and this is the answer we got back. Now I'm going to proceed with our witnesses, who have been patiently waiting. Thank you.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(i) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, September 17, 2024, the committee resumes its study on the mission, mandate, role, structure and financing of the new capstone research funding organization announced in budget 2024.

It is now my pleasure to welcome, from the Department of Health, Michelle Boudreau, associate assistant deputy minister, health policy branch. From the Department of Industry we have Nipun Vats, assistant deputy minister, science and research sector.

Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we'll proceed with rounds of questions.

Mr. Vats, I invite you to make an opening statement of up to five minutes, please.

[Dr. Nipun Vats, Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Research Sector, Department of Industry]

Thank you, Madam Chair and members, for the invitation. I'm here on the traditional unceded and unsurrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people today to discuss the capstone research funding organization as a central element of the government's plan to modernize the research support system.

As assistant deputy minister for the science and research sector at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, or ISED, I'm responsible for managing the policies and programs related to the federal funding of post‑secondary research.

The ISED portfolio supports researchers through two of the three federal granting councils, as you know, NSERC and SSHRC. The third granting council, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, falls within the health portfolio, and my colleague will be speaking to that today as well. Together, these councils form the backbone of the federal research support system we know today, alongside the Canada Foundation for Innovation, which funds research infrastructure.

The granting councils have been highly successful at delivering on their mandates and supporting social, technological and public health advancements. However, the challenges that we face today are far more complex and interconnected than the challenges encountered when these structures were first established.

Researchers are increasingly working across disciplines, sectors, and borders to address multi-faceted issues such as public health crises and environmental sustainability, but the fragmentation of the system limits support for cross-cutting solutions and hinders the coordination necessary to fully address these challenges.

This was recognized by the advisory panel on the federal research support system, which was convened to gather independent expert advice on the structure and governance of the federal system supporting research and talent, and how to position research investments for greatest impact.

Among the panel's recommendations was the creation of a new structure to improve coordination, collaboration and agility, enhance strategic direction and modernize research support. The capstone is a direct reflection of these objectives and a commitment to strengthen and build a more resilient research ecosystem.

The capstone would integrate the three federal granting councils within a single federal research funding organization, establishing CIHR, NSERC and SSHRC as constituent research councils. The capstone would be more than just an umbrella organization over three separate councils. It would also provide a unified governance structure to foster coordination and collaboration across disciplines.

It would be led by a single board of directors with diverse representation, who would provide strategic governance and a CEO responsible for day-to-day operations. This governance would drive coordination across the organization, enhancing support for cross-cutting disciplinary and multi-sectoral research and partnerships within and outside of Canada while preserving the discipline-specific leadership that the granting councils currently provide.

It would also maintain vital linkages with the Canada Foundation for Innovation, given the links between research and research infrastructure, and ensure the organization plays an active role within the broader science ecosystem.

A key objective of this new structure is to support all types of research and researchers. This includes investigator‑driven research, which is essential for generating foundational knowledge through new ideas, theories and insights; research that can provide practical solutions to specific societal challenges; and more strategic or applied research, where findings can be turned into applications.

The capstone would aim to help bridge the gaps among these types of research and among disciplines and sectors in order to effectively tackle domestic and global challenges, drive innovation and improve the quality of life of the people of Canada.

Academic freedom would remain a foundational principle of the capstone, ensuring that research is funded based on internationally accepted standards of scientific excellence and ethics and peer and merit review.

The capstone would also continue to advance equity, diversity and inclusion research, ensuring that researchers for equity-seeking groups have equal opportunities to access funding. This includes strengthening research capacity for indigenous researchers and communities and fostering a more inclusive understanding of the world through indigenous ways of knowing.

It would also include continuing to support French language research to ensure that francophone communities can contribute equally to and benefit from scientific advancements.

The capstone would enhance Canada's global scientific reputation through improved coordination and collaboration and by further incorporating diverse perspectives that play a crucial role in effectively addressing complex societal challenges.

In closing, I would like to thank the research community, including the advisory panel, for their valuable contributions so far, as well as the committee for its deliberations. Ongoing dialogue will ensure that the capstone meets the community's needs and serves the broader interests of the country.

I thank you for your time and your important work, and I look forward to answering your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you.

We'll now turn to Ms. Boudreau.

You have the floor for five minutes.

Thank you.

[Michelle Boudreau, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Policy Branch, Department of Health]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair and members of the committee, for the invitation to be here today.

I want to begin by acknowledging that I'm speaking to you today from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin and Anishinabe people.

My name is Michelle Boudreau. As you already know, I'm the associate assistant deputy minister of the health policy branch at Health Canada, and I work very closely with my colleague at ISED, Nipun Vats, whom you just heard from.

I will not revisit the topics that my colleague has covered in his statement. Instead, I'll take a few minutes to speak about health research and its importance to the health of Canadians.

Health research creates the scientific evidence and knowledge needed to support the health and wellness of people in Canada. It is vital for decision-makers at all levels of government. Health research also helps health professionals, policy-makers, health system administrators and others make informed decisions.

Canada has a strong health research community, with research in universities, colleges and polytechnics, in hospitals, in affiliated research institutes and in government and private sector research facilities as well.

The Canadian Institute of Health Research, CIHR, has also been central to the development of Canada's vibrant health research community.

Health research and innovations are constantly changing to address the complex and emerging issues impacting people's health. Research has needed to become increasingly collaborative in response. This is where the capstone organization will play a vital role.

Moving forward, we anticipate that the capstone's objective of maximizing the impact of research by increasing collaboration and by better supporting research that crosses disciplines and sectors will have great benefits for health for all Canadians.

Bringing together health, social sciences and natural sciences will create opportunities to address the disparities that affect the health and well‑being of Black and racialized people, people with disabilities, 2LGBTQIA+ people and other communities.

We also see an opportunity to advance reconciliation by promoting collaboration and co‑development with indigenous communities, with organizations and with academics in order to address the disparities that affect the health and well‑being of members of first nations, Inuit and Métis communities.

According to the research community, making sure that the capstone organization, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research or CIHR, the Minister of Health and other health partners maintain strong ties will play a vital role in the capstone organization's success. We remain committed to maintaining these ties.

These ties will also play a key role in ensuring that emerging health issues are given prominence; that research evidence informs health policies, programs and regulations; and that health research gets integrated into strategic initiatives.

At Health Canada, in particular, our deep and lasting ties with CIHR, and in turn with the health research community, ensure that we can apply research evidence to our work.

Through our collaboration with CIHR, we can also help the Canadian health research community to better understand the critical questions and issues that we face, resulting in more targeted advice and more effective health research.

I'll end my remarks here. My colleague, Dr. Clifford, CIHR's acting president, will also be appearing later today. She can elaborate on the feedback from the health research community regarding the capstone organization.

Thank you for giving me the floor today. I look forward to answering your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you, Ms. Boudreau.

We'll now start our members' questions and open the floor.

Be sure to indicate to whom your questions are directed.

We'll start with MP Viersen for six minutes, please.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I, too, want to just voice my concerns around the minister's not appearing this fall yet. I think we made ourselves fairly clear about that. It is incredibly frustrating.

However, I would note that Mr. Vats has answered a bunch of the questions that we were wondering about. I had a number of questions prepared here just around whether we would be melding the tri-councils into the new capstone association. I think you referred to the fact that you will be. There will be a pulling together of that.

We've also noted a number of studies that are having money sent abroad to the United States and to other countries. We heard from witnesses who talked about how the Americans are putting crazy amounts of money into research.

How do you think the capstone will manage the more targeted funding for research? Looking around the world and seeing what is in Canada's interests, how do we focus Canadians to get these research dollars...to maximize Canada's place in the world, I suppose?

[Dr. Nipun Vats]

First, maybe I'll just clarify your first comment, which is about the melting together or the melding of the councils.

What we're trying to do is drive integration but still draw on the expertise of those domain-specific councils, which have the natural science and engineering expertise or the health expertise. Sometimes you need to bring those together to address an issue like the pandemic, for example, where you need to bring disciplines together. That's going to be the role of the capstone. It will have an overall kind of governance responsibility for the organization as a whole. That's not to minimize the importance of the domain-specific research areas that feed into that.

With respect to the international positioning, I think one thing that the Bouchard report highlighted and was also true in the consultations that came forward is that Canada does really well in terms of researcher-initiated international collaboration, but it's not necessarily thought of from the standpoint of the strategic interests of the country as a whole. That's natural for a researcher. A researcher is going to find the best people to work with anywhere in the world to advance knowledge, so long as it adheres to some important principles around, in our case, research security or the research integrity elements.

However, individual researchers alone are not going to necessarily be able to say, collectively, that they have certain capabilities to bring to the table and that they want to work with their trusted partners to advance collaboration and research that can lead to economic benefits, greater security benefits or societal benefits for the country.

There could be big challenges internationally that we want to work on together. That's a bit of the role of the capstone as well. It's to bring that kind of coherent, coordinated voice to those international collaborations that may be there but are a bit more diffuse in the way that the system is now.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

What we've been hearing from the witnesses is, I think, that's this is what the dream of the capstone is.

How do we make sure that this isn't just a renaming exercise? We just smush it together and, instead of three councils, we have one, and it's essentially a renaming exercise.

What specifically do you think is going to be different from what we currently have?