Evidence of meeting #115 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was good.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Shaun Chen Liberal Scarborough North, ON
Very quickly, I will go back to Professor Kitcher.
What do you say to calls to eliminate equity, diversity and inclusion in research?
John Dewey Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, As an Individual
I think that they're premature, but I'm prepared to believe that too much emphasis has been placed upon them at a cost to other people.
I said very briefly in my opening statement that you have to attend to the needs of all of the citizens. The fact that some group has been marginalized in the past gives it some right to have that treatment repaired, but it should not come at the cost of marginalizing others.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford
Thank you, Dr. Kitcher. That's a little bit over our time, but I wanted you to finish your thought.
We'll now turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for joining us today for this study.
Professor Kitcher, you mention in your work that science needs to be democratic.
Do you think that equity, diversity and inclusion policies are democratic, given that they reject individuals on the basis of considerations other than scientific excellence?
John Dewey Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, As an Individual
I'm sorry; I can't understand what the question is. I speak some French, but I cannot follow all of the words of the questioner.
Executive Director, Climate Discussion Nexus, As an Individual
There's a translation option at the bottom of the screen.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford
Yes, at the bottom of the screen, you can hit “English”. Then you'll get the translation.
Executive Director, Climate Discussion Nexus, As an Individual
It's that thing that looks like a globe.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford
They are three little dots. At the bottom of the screen, you'll see more if you click on them.
You have it. That's great.
I'm going to stop the time.
Do you want to ask your question again so that he can hear the English translation?
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Can we do a test to check if Professor Kitcher can hear the interpretation of the French?
John Dewey Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, As an Individual
I'm afraid not. I'm just hearing the French.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford
We're back in action here.
Do you want to repeat the question one more time?
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Professor Kitcher, you often mention in your work that science needs to be democratic.
Do you think that equity, diversity and inclusion policies are democratic, given that they reject individuals on the basis of considerations other than scientific excellence?
John Dewey Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, As an Individual
I don't think they are democratic. That's a very simple answer.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Okay.
Several witnesses have told us that there was a lack of ideological representation and that people who dared to hold views that were different from the established norm were threatened, which seems undemocratic.
You seem to be opposed to exclusion in principle. Would increasing funding for research help make science more accessible, improve diversity and representation, and maybe even support inclusion without having to resort to selective policies?
John Dewey Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, As an Individual
I do think the procedures that you have described are undemocratic and wrong. What has been good about the DEI proposals is that they have brought into the research and teaching community a number of people whose voices had not previously been heard. That is a very good thing. It is not a good thing when you then start excluding people on the grounds that they don't meet those previously marginalized standards.
I said earlier that the problem with a policy to compensate people who had previously been marginalized is that implementing that policy may then marginalize another group. What you're pointing to in your question is that this has happened here. That is wrong. What you've done is create a new set of marginalized people. That's the same kind of wrong you were originally trying to correct. The policy is not only wrong but also fundamentally morally inconsistent.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you for that answer.
Professor Yves Gingras told our committee that science is universal and that there's no point attributing an ethnic identity to innovations.
Do you think that EDI policies run the risk of compromising scientific universalism and the quest for truth in favour of an essentialist vision?
John Dewey Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, As an Individual
Yes, they do run the danger of doing that. However, I think it's fairly well understood. There's good psychological and social evidence on this. Having a number of different perspectives within the research and teaching community brings epistemic benefits—that is, benefits with respect to finding out and justifying the truth.
What is good about this policy is the way it has diversified the research community. A secondary good is that it has made the results of the research community more acceptable and more trustworthy for other people.
We do not want to go back to the days when a certain group of people were shut out from the research community. Those people were deprived of the benefits of scientific research. That is the terrible thing. The DEI movement grew out of trying to correct that. In doing so, it has, I think, gone too far in various respects and made some mistakes. That's just the sort of thing that calls for the detailed ethical investigation that I've been talking about in much of my work.
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Could you elaborate on what you would recommend in terms of changing the funding criteria to avoid excluding people on the basis of considerations other than scientific merit?
John Dewey Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, As an Individual
It's advisable to try to train and find young people in various marginalized groups who can then go forward to become equal researchers and leaders of a research community down the road. The best work I know of that's being done with respect to DEI is work that is trying to train members of communities that have previously been marginalized so that they will be able to compete on equal terms with others. That has been successful in some cases. There's still work to be done with respect to that.
I don't believe that what one wants to do is foster an inferior group of people who not only are regarded by outsiders as being there because of some particular extraneous characteristic but who also regard themselves as having been the beneficiaries of some kind of largesse.
We do want to make this a level playing field, but we also have to realize that the field is currently not level for some groups in our societies, and they need help to get them to a stage where they can compete on equal terms with others.
John Dewey Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, As an Individual
That's the fundamental point.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Valerie Bradford
Okay. That's our time.
For the final six minutes of this round, it will be MP Cannings.
Go ahead, please.