Science and Research Committee on Nov. 14th, 2022

[Dr. Martine Lagacé]

Do I have time to answer?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Vice-President Lagacé.

Mr. Cannings has two seconds left, so perhaps he would like to ask you for a written answer.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Yes

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

We're now going to go to the five-minute round.

It's my understanding that this is going to go to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, the floor is yours.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Lagacé, it is a pleasure to have you with us this evening. I would like to congratulate and thank you. I have listened to a podcast by the Centre for Interdisciplinary Research on Citizenship and Minorities that dealt with this evening's topic, research and scientific publication in French. It was very interesting and I invite my colleagues to listen to it.

You said that the University of Ottawa was the largest bilingual university, not just in Canada, but in the world. Would you have any figures about the percentage of scientific production in French at your university, as compared to what is done in English?

[Dr. Martine Lagacé]

I would like to point out that we have the oldest bilingual university press in North America. It publishes 28 to 30 academic works per year, about half of which are in French. The University of Ottawa Press has a duty to make sure it publishes as much in French as in English.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Right. In general, at the University of Ottawa, do you know the percentage of scientific production in French as compared to in English?

[Dr. Martine Lagacé]

I don't have that number in my head, but I can certainly provide it in writing.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

We will be very pleased to receive it; thank you.

You addressed the impact factor, which has a great influence on the ranking of scientific publications. It is even acknowledged that the impact factor initially devalues scientific publication in French. Concerning that factor, there has been the famous San Francisco Declaration on Research Assessment, or DORA.

Is it correct that you acknowledge that the influence of the impact factor has diminished the value of scientific publication in French?

[Dr. Martine Lagacé]

You have put it well: universities are ranked using quantified indices. By definition, publishing in francophone journals that do not have this concept of impact factor means that if you publish only in French, you are kind of losing before you begin.

I think this is coming back. We talked about recommendations earlier. The universities can collaborate, but I think a joint effort needs to be made at a much higher level. It might mean rethinking the formula for ranking universities and exactly what we want to value, beyond an impact factor.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Lagacé.

You see me coming. You say that universities must contribute to the effort, as must the federal government.

I am trying to understand why the University of Ottawa did not sign the San Francisco Declaration on Research Assessment, which states that the impact factor creates a problem for ranking. Your institution is the biggest bilingual university in Canada, if not the world. You tell me that you acknowledge that the impact factor, that is, the ranking of a scientific publication, devalues scientific publication in French. So I would like to know why the University of Ottawa does not show leadership and has not signed the declaration.

[Dr. Martine Lagacé]

No one says we will not sign that declaration, but I can't answer you on that subject right now. However, I do have to point out that DORA is just one of many instruments.

The University of Ottawa is a leader, one that I would describe as visionary. I was talking earlier about our knowledge mobilization strategy, which is central to our research plan. That strategy values something other than the numerical factors for creating knowledge. We give our francophone researchers who are doing mobilization a lot of support.

You gave the example of the Centre for Interdisciplinary Research on Citizenship and Minorities, which weighs heavily in our support for research in French.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I want to understand your perspective, Professor Lagacé. I understand that you hope to sign the declaration someday. However, I would point out that it dates from 2013, nearly ten years ago now. I understand that you are going to examine your position someday, but I think the picture is pretty clear today. Only six of Canada's 97 universities have signed the declaration.

Again, I find it hard to understand why, nearly ten years later, the biggest bilingual university in Canada, if not the world, is not able to take a position in favour of that declaration, which addresses a problem you also recognize.

If the federal government or francophone scientific actors are not exercising leadership and are not necessarily engaging in actions, how do you think things can really change?

I am trying to understand how we, actors in the federal government, can help the institutions when they themselves are not necessarily doing their share of things.

[Dr. Martine Lagacé]

Excuse me, but I would not conclude that not having signed the declaration—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas—

[Dr. Martine Lagacé]

—amounts to lacking leadership and vision about research in French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

—that's your time.

Thank you very much.

Again, we really do want to recognize all our witnesses for coming and for their time, their effort and their expertise.

We will now go to Ms. Bradford for five minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to both witnesses for your time this evening.

Dr. Lagacé, I'd like to start with a more general question because of your unique situation with a truly bilingual university. What are the specific challenges faced by francophone universities and faculties in provinces with an anglophone majority?

[Dr. Martine Lagacé]

Excuse me, I didn't hear your question properly. Can you repeat it?

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Yes. For a francophone university or faculty in a province or a territory that is primarily anglophone, what are the unique challenges from an institutional perspective?

[Dr. Martine Lagacé]

Thank you for your question.

First and foremost, we exist in a doubly minority context, being a minority within a minority. At the university, it is often the francophone researchers who have to fight to make their voices heard and to get their place in a system that may value research in English more than in French.

One of the challenges is that the slippage is a bit more dangerous when we exist in a context like that.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

The next question leads into that. What types of services or assistance do researchers need to carry out their activities in French, including conducting their research, publishing their work, organizing scientific events and applying for funding? What sort of special assistance would make it easier for them to do that?

[Dr. Martine Lagacé]

I think I mentioned that earlier when I made recommendations. My colleague said that translation was only one element, to be recommended, of course, since we want to promote the creation of knowledge in French at the starting point.

We would therefore recommend supporting researchers and offering them translation services, which would enable them to write their research in French and then have it translated into English, and thus disseminate their scientific articles and scientific works, as such, more widely.

I also think there may be a role for the granting councils to play so that researchers feel they are invited to submit their applications in French. We are seeing fewer and fewer francophone researchers submitting their applications to the three granting councils in French. The councils could therefore encourage francophone researchers more openly and obviously to submit their applications in French. That might help.

We also recommend that the granting councils create a committee that would ensure fairness in the success rate for applications submitted in French. In all cases, the committee would have to make sure that the success rate of francophone researchers who submit their applications in French does not drop. Here, I am thinking of the word “oversight”, which may not be the right one, but this might be an element to apply oversight to.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay, right. That's once the applications get to those funding councils, but to what extent can the services that are going to encourage the applications by francophones in the first place be provided by the university? How can the universities be encouraged to assist with or offer those services so that they get more applications to these funding councils?

[Dr. Martine Lagacé]

Our university already offers support services for preparing grant applications, whether in French or in English, since the University of Ottawa is bilingual.

Francophone researchers are encouraged to prepare their applications in French. The fact remains that many of them choose to submit their applications to the three granting councils in English, despite everything. That may be a result of some sort of distrust or fear that the success rate will be lower for applications in French. However, that situation goes beyond the support that the University of Ottawa can provide.