Science and Research Committee on March 28th, 2023

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

We're all open to ideas to prevent—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

I'm sorry, Mr. Sousa, but we are out of time, over a bit.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much, Vice-Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

I don't like cutting off witnesses, but I will cut off MPs when they go over their allotted time.

Now, for six minutes, we have MP Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Chair. It’s a pleasure to see you back as committee chair.

I’d like to welcome my colleagues and the witnesses joining us today for this important study.

My first question is for you, Mr. Durand. Thank you, by the way, for being in the room with us today. We greatly appreciate it.

Your organization’s mission is, among other things, to create a forum for exchange between all the players in the Quebec and Canadian innovation and intellectual property ecosystem. This includes entrepreneurs, companies, researchers, investors, incubators and accelerators.

Apart from your forum, are there other places for these players to exchange ideas in Quebec and Canada?

[David Durand]

In my opinion, the answer to this question is no. We are trying to increase our funding as a non-profit organization to benefit FORPIQ. To that end, one of our goals is to become an organization that is not only Quebec-based, but pan-Canadian, by offering these kinds of resources to all players in the innovation ecosystem.

That being said, the current FORPIQ model still allows for several players to be in the same room, which creates some very important sparks to stimulate the innovation ecosystem on a daily basis and create things that didn’t exist before. Obviously, the support of other partners, such as the Intellectual Property Institute of Canada, or accelerators and incubators across the country who also provide their perspective, is a major catalyst for Canadian innovation.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You are moving towards my next question: What impact would better coordination between these players have?

[David Durand]

In my opinion, that could have a huge impact, and the reason is simple. Just look at the Swedish model of collaboration between the various players. That country has a stock market for intellectual property. These are things we can talk about. We have a relationship with WIPO. So we have access to international resources to disseminate information that is already prepared and endorsed by the international community for the benefit of Canadians and Quebeckers.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Durand.

What can we learn from the Quebec model in order to integrate it into the Canadian one, based on the organization you represent today?

[David Durand]

I will answer that question in English.

The concept of breaking silos is something that is very important, because, again, the innovation ecosystem is not a provincial centric issue. It is a national issue. We're confronted with serious issues when we're looking at, for instance, cybersecurity concerns and acquisition of Canadian intellectual property.

Aaron Shull and I raised the issue, because we're looking at front-door and back-door techniques to the acquisition of Canadian intellectual property. Front door is the simple case where foreign players acquire Canadian IP through legal channels by merger and acquisition. They purchase asset agreements and share agreements. They acquire all of this wonderful IP, and they're able to bring it to their own jurisdictions. That's one way.

Obviously, with back-door techniques, we have more issues with rogue actors who are embedded within companies and are also able to take Canadian intellectual property.

These are concerns and things that have to become front and centre. That's why, when we're looking at all the stakeholders across Canada, obviously the voices of Canadians from coast to coast are extremely important. That's something that we're privileging through FORPIQ.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Durand.

I will follow up with a very important question.

According to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, commonly known as the OECD, the sum of private sector research and development investment in Canada was just 0.81% of our GDP in 2019, compared to an average of 1.76% for other OECD member countries. Canada was number 24 among the 37 OECD member countries, using this indicator.

Ranking number 24 out of 37, in my opinion, is not very good. I would even say it’s not good at all. I believe that Canada should look in the mirror and strive to improve.

How do you explain Canada’s abysmal position in this regard?

[Daniel Schwanen]

May I answer that question, Mr. Durand?

[David Durand]

Yes, go ahead.

[Daniel Schwanen]

I apologize for interrupting.

First, we have to be careful, because Canada’s economic activity is quite diverse. Ontario and Quebec, for example, would rank significantly higher if compared to other OECD countries. That’s something I wanted to clarify.

Moreover, if it were feasible to turn research and development into economic activity in Canada, more of it would be happening. We are talking about the Quebec model here. Quebec is currently experimenting with a patent regime that could be applied across Canada, as I have in fact recommended.

I also want to point out that public procurement is a very important component of the innovation incentive. If, for example, a hospital system is not open to acquiring local innovative products, perhaps the companies that manufacture them will go abroad to do research or relocate. Several reports have been published on this topic, including by…

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Your message has been well received, Mr. Schwanen.

I will take the liberty of piggybacking on your response. Thank you for providing that nuance, but I…

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

I'm sorry, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, but that is way over our limit of six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Oh, what a shame, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

We'll move to our next member, MP Cannings, for six minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to both of the witnesses here before us, today.

I would like to follow up on that conversation with Mr. Schwanen and talk about Canada's record in IP development, why countries like the United States are far ahead of us, and whether it has something to do with the culture of the private sector.

In our last meeting, we had, before us, Robert Asselin from the Business Council of Canada—I think that's what his name was. He put forward the idea of Canada investigating DARPA-like models, DARPA being the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency in the United States. This involves government and private sector getting together and focusing on certain areas. In Canada, we have areas in which we are leaders: AI, quantum and biotech.

Is this a model the C.D. Howe Institute thinks might be a good one in Canada?

[Daniel Schwanen]

In principle, certainly, yes.

I published research with my colleague Rosalie Wyonch a few years back that made the case that one of the things holding Canada back, relative to a number of our competitors—apart from some of the tools and instruments I mentioned—is that we're not very goal-oriented, when the public sector enunciates some important goals vis-à-vis security, health or the environment that's changing. Where we bring together governments, our researchers and private firms to find solutions....

We mentioned Sweden and the United States. There are such things as innovation marketplaces, where you basically go online and say.... A government, public agency or the equivalent of Hydro-Québec in Sweden can say, “I'm looking for solutions to this; this is my problem.” How about calling all entrepreneurs or people with ideas to come and give us their ideas, and we will make them come to fruition? It's that kind of goal-oriented collaboration that, I agree, could be very helpful.

You know, in Canada, we're behind in a number of things: green technologies and supply chains. Talk about Australia or Europe. We need to come around on these goals, then the innovation will come. The businesses that can grow from this innovation will come, as well.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Mr. Durand, do you want to comment on that as well?

[David Durand]

Sure, Honourable Cannings.

The idea presented by C.D. Howe in terms of the IP exchange is a very good one, I believe. I know that the World Intellectual Property Organization has made the WIPO GREEN as well. I would just be mindful that the quality of intellectual property that finds itself on the exchanges obviously has to be verified by those who want to use those types of services.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

How much time do I have, Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

You have two minutes and 20 seconds.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay. I have lots of time.

Mr. Durand, you mentioned in passing “dormant” IP. Could you expand on that? How does that fit into this question, and where might Canada benefit by waking that up?