Science and Research Committee on April 27th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's great. Thank you for getting all of that on the record, and thanks to Mr. Cannings for making sure that happened.

We're moving into our five-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Mazier.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Buy, we haven't heard much from agriculture, so I'm really happy you're here today to be part of this study. Agriculture tends to be forgotten, but agriculture does participate a lot in science and research, so I really appreciate you being here.

I want to touch back on what you asked the government. You asked whether they monitor the amount of money they invest in agriculture through the programs, and they got back to you and said they don't monitor it.

[Serge Buy]

They said they used to have that information.

To be clear, I asked the question, “Do you know how much money in total you're spending on agri-food research and innovation?” The answer was that they used to have that information; they don't have it anymore.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Can you provide that documentation to this committee?

[Serge Buy]

I provided a statement. It was said verbally.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Okay.

Is that a bit concerning?

[Serge Buy]

To me it's very concerning. It is very concerning to the sector as well.

It speaks to a broader issue. It speaks to the fact that there is no coordination. You have a multiplicity of programs, and people are creating new programs and more programs, and that seems to be the value or the measure of success.

What we're saying is let's not use the development of new programs and how many people were hired to administer those programs as the measure of success. Let's look at efficiencies. Before we move on new rules for IP or changes to that, let's look at the ecosystem generally and look at how we can better support the sector on our side.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I can't imagine these delays. It would frustrate the heck out of everybody, especially in agriculture, where we only have a certain amount of time to do these kinds of things or someone else is going to come in.

You also mentioned the CFIA in your remarks and that whole review process and the delays on that. I don't know whether you wanted to expand on that. I've been following that for years.

How would you explain to a science committee how important it is to get that project done by this government?

[Serge Buy]

It is crucial. It is going to enable producers to have significant improvements on their farms. We've invested in research. We've gone through I don't know how many regulatory hoops and legislation. We've brought in regulations. Everybody said, “Okay, we're finally there”, and then suddenly, “No, you have to wait for guidance. Guidance is being developed.” It's being developed in consultations and discussions with a number of groups, some of which have no scientific background and are opposing some of those changes. Suddenly, everything grinds to a halt, which means that all the innovation that was developed grinds to a halt and...moves forward.

When you look at innovators and at innovators in companies, they're going to look at the system. Is Canada a stable country for innovation, or is it being swayed by lobby group A, B or C? Do we need to move somewhere else, where science is going to lead the charge on this?

I think science should lead the charge on this.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

How many years have you been struggling with this particular case? Has it been four?

[Serge Buy]

I don't have the exact number, but I can tell you that it's been way too long. I think it has maybe been four or five.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Maybe it's been seven or eight.

[Serge Buy]

Maybe.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Okay.

Mr. Bailey, I asked the University of Saskatchewan for their patent income in comparison to the federal research funding they received. Their written response says that, over the last five years, total federal research expenditures were over $418 million. Total licence income received was $51 million. That's a loss of 88%.

Why should Canadians be okay with such significant losses?

[Todd Bailey]

I'm not at all familiar with what the University of Saskatchewan is doing. I can tell you that innovation is an expensive business, because no one is anywhere near a 100% effectivity rate on developing innovation.

One thing I brought forward is that you can innovate in a vacuum or you can innovate to customer demand. Universities are these hybrid-type places. They are places of academia but are also engaging with industry. Not being from that community, I can't speak to it directly. However, it seems to me there is probably a tension between wanting to do the research academia is leading you toward and being told you need to file patents—or whatever it is they are being told. On the flip side, look at the more engineering-based type of research being done. It's probably done with more of a market focus in mind.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you.

We'll go over to Mr. Lauzon for five minutes.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Buy, you’ve sparked my curiosity a bit. In your remarks, you talked about input challenges. We just introduced the Agricultural Climate Solutions, or ACS program to implement agricultural practices to address climate change, such as cover crops, and it has an impact on inputs.

In your opinion, do programs like this one, with the second round in 2022, offer any benefits for farmers’ IP? Can it help them reduce or modify their inputs and implement agricultural practices to address climate change?

[Serge Buy]

Thank you.

I certainly won’t say that the program isn’t a good one. It certainly has a good purpose. So it’s a good thing, yes.

I’m going to go back to what I was saying about the proliferation of programs that are spreading in all directions, and the industry’s concerns about that.

That said, creating a program like this is one thing, but how will the innovations be adopted by farms afterwards? That’s a slightly bigger issue that should be addressed. The question is whether producers have the capacity to adopt, implement, and develop these innovations.

A few months ago, at another committee, I was talking about the carbon tax, and one of the members of your party told me that there were innovative solutions for replacing gasoline. The response was that none of these solutions could be implemented everywhere.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Mr. Buy, you understand that this committee is holding a serious meeting today.

Yet you are telling us that, across these 20 organizations, Intellectual Property, or IP, is not coordinated. You're also telling us that you don't have the numbers, but that the agreements you heard about were verbal.

Here, we are asking for tangible numbers and technical data.

Are you saying that there is no scientific data to move forward intellectual property cases for programs like the one we just talked about?

[Serge Buy]

I believe you misunderstood me, Mr. Lauzon.

What I said is that when we asked a senior government official if he had data to show us how much money the government was investing in agri-food research and innovation programs, the answer was no. We were told he'd had access to the data in the past but no longer did, and that this was the case government-wide.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Is there a chance that the senior official simply did not have the data on hand when you asked?

[Serge Buy]

No, that was not the case...

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Could he have needed to look for the information and get back to you with an answer?

[Serge Buy]

I will look further into it, but this was not a matter of what data the official had when I inquired. The answer I received was that they no longer had those metrics.