Science and Research Committee on May 4th, 2023

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

With all due respect, I think you're mixing up two things in your question. You're talking about the operation of universities and the direct support offered to students in these universities. In my opinion, these are two very different things and—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

In fairness, though, if there are 2,000 of these research and post-doctoral fellows across the country and you have all of these universities and they know it's an issue, wouldn't they be able to work together—they already have all these associations—and say, “Yes, Ms. Freeland, we need $500 million more in annual dollars”?

I know the study, and it's a good study, but we all know that it's more. We know how much more, but we don't know the total.

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

The position of the Canadian Association for Graduate Studies is very simple: the value of scholarships should be increased to keep pace with the cost of living, which should have been done 20 or 25 years ago. The association also believes that research grants to faculty should be increased to allow them to provide adequate financial support to the students they supervise.

Obviously, if the federal government decides to close its granting councils and redirect the money to the universities, something different can be done. At the moment, research funding isn't going directly to the universities, but to the federal granting councils.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I have another question before my time runs out.

I always wonder, when we look at these universities...and I don't begrudge any of the higher-ups at these universities their big wages. I don't begrudge them—whatever they want to make.

My question is, and I'm sure that among your colleagues you must wonder.... There are the professors, and then there's this huge sea of administration, and at some of these universities it's hundreds of millions of dollars a year in salaries. Do you think the universities should take a look at their annual...?

I'm not talking about the professors but about the administration and all the staff. Should they look at that, too, and say to the federal government, “Look, we're going to take a look at our billion-dollar budgets at our universities”—in some cases, multi-billion dollar budgets—“and we're going to get some of our house in order here, and then we'd like you to fund these.” What do you think? You must talk about this.

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

University funding is a provincial responsibility, and I don't know the situation in every province in Canada. However, I can tell you that in Quebec, if there were a cleanup to be done—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

You can talk about the administration at a university. That's very much dependent on—

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

Yes, absolutely.

However, I wanted to tell you that, in Quebec, between 2012 and 2015, major cuts were made to university budgets and a major cleanup was done.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Is that in administration? I don't imagine there have been cuts in the administration budget.

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

Yes, there were indeed budget cuts in Quebec universities. Their financial situation is very precarious, as it is in several Canadian provinces.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

How much time is left?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

You have 31 seconds.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

In all good sport, I will donate that to my colleagues in the Bloc and the NDP. How about that for collegiality?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

That's fabulous. That shows some team work.

Now moving on to the second MP for this round, we have Mr. Sousa for six minutes.

The floor is yours.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to all three of you for being here to discuss this important issue and the motion put forward recognizing the challenges that you have all reaffirmed.

There's a lack of funding. There's a desire to see the research, the importance.... You have referenced, Monsieur Bélanger, this government's desire to improve our whole capacity around research to ensure that we're competitive worldwide and to ensure that we attract the best and the brightest and retain them here as well.

That's obviously a theme we recognize. We want to discuss it. We want to elaborate on how we can produce better results.

I take some caution in the question I just received. We also have to redirect our funding in an effective way so as to manage it fiscally, so we can ensure that we're appropriating dollars effectively.

Cynthia, are we attracting more foreign students? Is there a desire to come to Canada? You talked about 30% being the number right now. Is that still holding strong?

[Cynthia Mbuya-Bienge]

It's important to understand that over the last few decades, the picture of higher education has really changed. Today, a good portion of students are international students and they still want to come to Canada. However, once in Canada, they face challenges that are different from those of Canadian students. These challenges aren't taken into account in the scholarship systems and the way they are currently designed.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I recognize that our education system is somewhat of an economic basis for an entry into Canada. We are a strongly sought-after jurisdiction because of our education and our ability to provide great academic excellence, and we attract foreign students, who pay the lion's share of tuition to come here. It's also a benefit to the universities, so we want to continue to strengthen that.

Monsieur Bélanger, I want to build on some of what my colleague has referenced here in terms of funding. I'm interested in that number. I really want to know. Some of your recommendations are that we need to increase the number of applications that are requested and we need to increase the value of some of those scholarships.

How much more are we looking for? How much more are you proposing in terms of the numbers and then the valuations?

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

As far as the total bill is concerned, I don't have a clear idea of the figure. I spoke to you earlier about the adjustment of the value of the scholarships that have been awarded for 20 or 25 years in Quebec and in Canada.

There is a tool from the Bank of Canada that is very simple to use. It allows you to calculate the value in today's dollars of a sum of money at a given time. So I would invite all of you to visit this website. It is very interesting. For example, $20,000 in 2000 is worth almost $35,000 today.

I think your three granting councils already have simulations, I presume. It would be interesting to ask them what scenarios they have in mind to increase the value of the awards to reflect the needs of graduate students in Canada.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

To build on that issue, you're requesting greater value on the individual scholarships and the individual ability, too, because of issues of mental health and the ability to stand up to the CPI and the cost of living that's happening.

What about the actual number of scholarships? By increasing the number of scholarships and increasing the value, we're asking a tremendous amount, so I think it's important for us to understand what you would like.

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

We want both. We want an increase in the value and number of scholarships.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

That comes with an equation with a dollar value, right?

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

Yes.

We therefore recommend that scenarios be evaluated to increase the number of scholarships granted to graduate students and to correct the historical error that was imposed on our researchers by letting them live in a situation of extreme poverty for years by not having indexed their scholarships. Who here today would agree to having their income remain fixed for 25 years? What minister, deputy minister, member of Parliament, or university administrator would agree to have their salary frozen for 25 years? No one would agree to that. The answer is obvious.

You're asking me for specific figures on what this represents. My answer is that the federal government has three granting councils with many employees, who would certainly be able to provide you with scenarios if you want information on the effect of increasing the value and number of awards. As a representative of a Canadian university association that aims to promote excellence in higher education, I can tell you that if we want to continue to do that and deal with the challenges in Canada, increasing the number of graduate students and making sure that they are well taken care of would be a good way to do it.

Now, in terms of the final total cost, I would encourage you to consult your advisors.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Am I done, Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

You have four seconds, three seconds....

Moving to the next member, we have, from the Bloc, Mr. Lemire.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to mention that I did some checking: my speech began at 11:36 and 48 seconds, and you interrupted me at 11:42 and 28 seconds, which is still 20 seconds if we add up the two and a half minutes. That's almost three minutes to ask questions. Why do I want to point this out to you? Because it has an impact on these brave young women who came to testify. We weren't able to ask questions on a fundamental issue for Quebec during those three minutes.

Having said that, I turn to the other problem of widespread underfunding of research.

Mr. Bélanger, a Radio-Canada report broadcast yesterday, May 3, informed us that an analysis of grant applications over the past 30 years, in which Acfas participated, established essentially three facts: science in English is taking the lion's share of the funding granted; the number of francophones writing research projects in French has plummeted over the past 30 years; and, in health, grant applications in French are generally rejected.

The fact that English-language science gets the lion's share of funding is a key point and a concern. Do you agree that more money needs to be set aside for French-language research and that the minister needs to take direct action to massively increase French-language funding, which is in a critical state?

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

I would have to see the fine details of the investigation. Not having seen it in detail, it's difficult for me to take a position today.

I know for a fact that French-speaking researchers and students choose to submit applications in English because they feel that they will be better evaluated by the councils and evaluation committees. Now, does this mean that these students are working in English or that this research is being conducted in English? I don't know.

The challenge of science in French isn't new. English is the language of science all over the world. If you go to Sweden, Germany, laboratories often conduct their work in English.