Science and Research Committee on May 4th, 2023

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm now going to turn to Ms. Metcalfe to talk about some of those changes.

Since 1975, the percentage of university budgets that come from the government has gone down from 75% to somewhere in the 40% range. That difference has been made up predominantly by raising tuition rates. This is another general stress on students—a rise in tuition rates that has been caused directly by a decrease in government funding.

That's for either of you. I don't know who. Whatever light goes on.

[Mackenzy Metcalfe]

This raises a very important concern around affordability and post-secondary education.

There has been a decrease in government funding to universities over the last couple of decades. Students have been increasingly paying higher tuition. Also, importantly, international students have been paying significantly higher tuition as well, because very often they're unregulated by the government, whereas domestic students have legislated caps in their provinces for what they can pay for tuition.

With the increases in tuition and the fact that students often enter the housing market at the going rate—so they pay higher costs for housing—students are having an affordability crunch. That goes for undergraduate students as well as the graduate students we're talking about today.

One of the reasons we are focusing specifically on the graduate scholarships and the post-doctoral fellowships is that these awards are seen as the benchmark. They are the most prestigious awards you can get as a student in Canada. It's very difficult for students who are then hired under professors or by their universities to advocate to be paid more money. We think this is an example of where a rising tide will lift all boats. If these scholarships are increased, other students will then benefit from that investment as well.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay.

I've also heard data that show that 38% of students who graduate with a Ph.D. here in Canada go outside Canada for their post-doctoral fellowships, partly because of the poor funding here.

When you do some quick “back of the envelope” math, that is a $640-million loss every year. We have spent all that money in educating these people. They go abroad. Many of them don't come back, because they find much greener pastures in the United States or elsewhere.

I was wondering whether either of you could comment on that.

[Mackenzy Metcalfe]

I'm happy to comment on that.

I will say this issue specifically is difficult to quantify, but we found a 2016 survey that found that 47% of early-career health researchers considered moving abroad. Since then, conditions have worsened.

According to the OECD, Canada is second-last in the G7 for investment in research and development by percentage of GDP. What's also important to note is that these graduate students and post-doctoral researchers conduct research in post-secondary education and help with Canada's prestige and reputation in terms of academia.

However, 75% of these Ph.D. students end up in industry. These are the people who create the solutions to challenges like fighting climate change and tackling Canada's housing crisis. We need these people in research and private industry to tackle the challenges we're going to face as a country. If they are going elsewhere, other countries will benefit from the time and effort Canada put into educating these scientists.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

Thank you so much for that.

Moving on to our five-minute round, we have Mr. Soroka for the Conservatives.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for coming today.

We've already talked a lot.... We definitely know there's a lack of funding in the country. That's not the issue here. I'm more concerned about....

Ms. Metcalfe, you just brought up how almost 50%—probably now 50%—of our graduate students are leaving the country. Would you happen to know, as well, how much of a factor that is in our research? How much less research is potentially being done and how is that affecting our GDP?

[Mackenzy Metcalfe]

Unfortunately, I don't have the data to answer that question right now. I'd be happy to follow up with the committee clerk afterwards.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

If you could get that information for us, that would be fantastic.

Ms. Tremblay, you said the Province of Quebec supports its students to a greater degree. Is this because of the French language? Might there not be as many opportunities for French-speaking Canadians outside Quebec, and is that why they do it, or is it just that they treat their students much better than the rest of Canada does?

[Samy-Jane Tremblay]

In fact, I think Quebec is a model for research.

Recently, in the last budget, we invested in increasing the amount of student scholarships offered by the Fonds de recherche du Québec. Master's scholarships were increased by $2,500 and doctoral scholarships were increased by $4,000. I would like to remind you that, in Quebec, master's scholarships are for two years and doctoral scholarships are for four years. In my opinion, Quebec is a model to follow. The provinces should follow Canada's model, but it is somewhat the opposite at the moment. So I invite Canada to follow the Quebec model.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay. Thank you for that.

Ms. Hennessey, you mentioned the international students coming in. Do you have any data to show how many of the international students who get either their master's or their doctorate here actually stay in Canada, or don't stay because there is a lack of funding? Do you have any information on that?

[Hilary Hennessey]

I want to answer that question with statistics, so I will follow up with the committee clerk to ensure that you have the information needed.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

As well, then, is it possible to find, when it comes to whether they're getting their master's or their doctorate, a comparison of how—I don't want to say poorly—Canada funds its students compared to other countries? Is it possible to get that kind of information as well, doing a comparison between the different countries?

[Hilary Hennessey]

It could be, so I will follow up with the committee clerk all that I can gather for you.

Thank you.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

If the other witness had that kind of information, I'd appreciate that as well.

Ms. Metcalfe.

[Mackenzy Metcalfe]

Thank you.

I have some of this information on hand, specifically about the recent investment that the United States did through their CHIPS Act. They actually increased the number of equivalent graduate scholarships in the United States by 50%. Those graduate researchers make the equivalent of $50,000 a year Canadian, compared to $17,500 for the Canada master's funding.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I know a bit more about the American program because, unfortunately, I have to admit that my nephew is now at Michigan State University, and the big thing was the amount of money he got paid for a full scholarship to go there. Now he is into his post-doctorate, and he got a significant increase compared to being in Canada. I can honestly say that the odds of his coming back to Canada now are slim to almost zero.

That's one of the things—we're losing...it's the brain drain. As well, then, what are we losing in education? What are we losing in...? You talked about our commercial side. What kinds of products could we create better or more innovatively, and how much are we losing that way?

I am hoping you can supply that information.

When it comes to other funding, though, do you feel we're losing students—not that they're going elsewhere, but that they're actually just not getting the education? Do you have any information on that?

[Mackenzy Metcalfe]

I'm sorry. Can you clarify? Do you mean undergraduate students?

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Yes, any graduate who is going for a doctorate or a master's degree, but there is not enough funding available so they're not actually completing that and they're just staying as a graduate. Do you have any information about that?

[Mackenzy Metcalfe]

I don't have any offhand, but I have the statistics that in 2016 a survey found 47% of early career health researchers had seriously considered leaving the country to pursue their education elsewhere, because of financial concerns.

This is something we've been hearing.

I recommend that you ask this question specifically to Sarah, from the Support our Science movement. She is testifying next week, and she has been a great champion for collecting the stories of these graduate students in Canada, highlighting the experiences they have been having, their struggles about securing funding, and the considerations they have while trying to pursue their research in Canada.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

That's probably a great question for her in the future, but today I am just concerned about how many students we could get better educated but who just can't financially afford to move on to the next step. That is a big factor.

[Mackenzy Metcalfe]

That's for sure.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

That's it for me.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

We will move on to Mr. Collins for five minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks to all the witnesses for appearing today, virtually and in person.

First and foremost what I'll do is cede 15 seconds to my friend across the table, to enable Madame Tremblay to answer his question.

If you want to answer that, then I will give you 15 seconds at this point in time to answer that question.