Science and Research Committee on May 4th, 2023

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Since researchers are often funded on the basis of scientific publications, Rémi Quirion, Quebec's chief scientist, was talking about the possibility of creating a multidisciplinary French-language journal. Do you think that Ottawa should invest in this project, which would allow the French language to shine more on a national and international scale, which would eventually have an effect on the grants given to francophone researchers?

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

I think any action that can help promote science in French would be a good action, and it would certainly be something we would support.

The Canadian Association for Graduate Studies is a bilingual association, and we're making more and more room for the French language, whether in our working sessions or in our annual conferences.

A French-language multidisciplinary scientific journal would indeed be interesting, but we mustn't forget that the French language can also be a barrier to scientific dissemination in some cases. I'm thinking, for example, of a physicist who decides to publish his thesis or dissertation in French. He could certainly do so as a French speaker, but this would probably mean that his work would remain on the shelf.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

You're right, which is why it's important to increase the amounts granted for the translation of this research. This is an essential objective. I would like to add that an open letter from researcher Serge Payette was published today. In it, he explains that in Canadian scientific journals that have their publication managed by the National Research Council of Canada—a federal agency—abstracts in French have been removed since December 2012, which has contributed to the dominance of English in these publications.

I would also like to hear your opinion on the issue of psychological health. I think there's a direct link between the $20,000 you're talking about that hasn't been indexed since 2003 and the impact on all students, particularly those enrolled in doctoral programs. We see that these students have to deal with challenges such as isolation, pressure, publication, overwork and depression, in addition to economic stress. What is the impact of the amount of the scholarship on mental health and the pursuit of studies?

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

The University of Montreal survey that I mentioned earlier speaks volumes on this subject. We know that there's a direct link between financial insecurity and mental health problems. There is a mental health crisis among graduate students. There is no doubt that the financial precariousness of our graduate students, whose scholarships haven't been indexed for over 20 years, contributes to exacerbating mental health problems.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Ms. Mbuya‑Bienge, I have a spouse who is a doctoral student at Laval University. I know how difficult the challenges of pursuing a degree can be. I would like your opinion on the link between psychological support and the amount of the scholarships.

[Cynthia Mbuya-Bienge]

Since the end of the pandemic, students' mental health problems have certainly been acute. The 58% of the student population that is reported to be suffering from psychological distress, which I mentioned earlier, was in the pre-pandemic period. We can only imagine the current numbers. As my colleague said, there is a direct correlation between the living conditions dictated by the funding students receive and their mental health. One factor plays on the other. Leaving grant amounts at their current levels does not allow students to improve their mental health.

In addition, there are already too many demands on university support programs. Laval University offers a mental health coaching program for students, but the waiting list is extremely long. The needs of students aren't being met, which makes them even more critical, especially in a post-pandemic context, when there is increased isolation and reduced teamwork. This is really an issue that needs to be addressed, and one way to do that is to increase funding for students.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, thank you for giving me more time.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

Thank you so much. That is 31 seconds over.

We're going to go on to Mr. Cannings for the final six-minute spot.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, all, for being here today.

I'm going to start with Mr. Bélanger.

On Monday, here, we had a walkout of graduate students across the country. Thousands of them here in Ottawa showed up on Parliament Hill. On Tuesday, we had Science Meets Parliament. I don't know if that was a coincidence or what, but we had top young researchers here on Parliament Hill. We had a reception with people like Dr. Mona Nemer, Canada's chief science adviser, and Frédéric Bouchard, who chaired and wrote the report on the Canadian research ecosystem. That report was put forward by this government.

I talked to all of them. There was just a general consensus that this question of increasing the funding of postgraduate students is such low-hanging fruit, such an obvious thing. Everybody was shocked that nothing had been done in the budget.

When I look at Dr. Bouchard's report and the U15 budget asks, I see that they are more or less the same. They want an increase of 10% per year for the next five years for research funding in Canadian universities and 5% per year for the next five years after that, and that is just to catch up to the United States and other countries.

We talk about how this is a lot of money. Well, we are falling behind. This is the information world, where we have to make these investments or Canada will be left as a backwater in the world.

I'm just wondering if you could comment on those reports—Dr. Bouchard's report and the U15 asks, what the grad students are asking. Just put it in context with what's happening in the United States. Finland was mentioned.

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

The position of the Canadian Association for Graduate Studies is very clear. After the 2023 budget was announced, we issued a press release, which is perfectly aligned with the Bouchard report and which also takes into account the criticisms that were made by U15 Canada and the Association francophone pour le savoir, or Acfas. It's funny that you mention them.

For all the people we talk to, the solution is so simple: increase the value of the scholarships. As I was saying earlier, who would agree to having their pay frozen for 25 years? Nobody would agree to that.

Second, Canada is indeed in competition with other countries. The United States was mentioned, but there are also Germany, Sweden and other European countries that offer higher scholarships.

However, what concerns me more than the competitiveness of the Canadian university system is really the well-being of the students who are here and to whom we have a moral duty to offer the best possible conditions of study. By freezing the salaries of our scholars for 25 years, we've failed in our moral obligation to appropriately support young adults who wish to train to develop the Canada of tomorrow.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'd like to turn to Ms. Mbuya-Bienge.

You mentioned the fact that post-doctoral scholarships and fellowships don't match up with.... A person with a doctoral degree is a very highly trained person who could go into the marketplace and get a job in industry, and they are finding out what they would be paid there versus what they're being paid at a post-doc.

Can you elaborate on what that difference would look like?

[Cynthia Mbuya-Bienge]

The average salary for an entry-level post-doctoral position in Canada is approximately $70,000. It should be noted that not all post-doctoral fellowships are given to all post-docs. Only some get them, and salaries for post-docs who have a collective agreement can sometimes be below minimum wage. That's the minimum that some post-docs get. So the gap is huge. There are people who have studied up to the PhD level to contribute astronomically to research in Canada, but who receive less than minimum wage.

However, it affects attractiveness. People don't want to spend years studying if their salary doesn't match their skills. We have to manage to close this gap if we want to not only attract people from abroad to produce Canadian knowledge, but also keep our people here so that they can contribute to reducing the research gap that's being created between other countries and Canada.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'll just add a comment to that.

I was just talking with biomedical researchers before I came to this meeting. One of them gave an example of how one of his students left Canada and went to the University of Arkansas to do a post-doc, not only because of the amount of money he would be getting but also because of the consistency in that funding over the years. He said it was not comparable at all to what he would get in Canada.

I'll just leave it at that.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Corey Tochor]

Thank you so much, Mr. Cannings.

We move now to the next five-minute round. We have Mr. Mazier.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you for coming out here.

Mr. Bélanger, I'm fascinated by all the different subjects you've spoken about here, especially when it comes to the funding mechanism and the exchange you had with Mr. Lobb.

We talked about needing the government to increase these rates, yet the funding has increased to the universities, quite obviously. Is that right? Let's say a professor or a researcher gets $1 million in funding. In the application, does it say they have to pay $17,500—and that's it—to the master's student, for example? What is stopping the researcher from actually paying that student more?

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

There is no constraint that prevents professors-researchers from paying more for students and post-doctoral researchers. In fact, in most universities, professors can give them financial support at their discretion. There's a lot of talk about federal granting council awards, but faculty who receive grants also give money.

If these grants aren't indexed, faculty will have access to the same amount of grant money, but will have difficulty keeping pace with income indexing for students. Council grant programs haven't been indexed either, and haven't been for a long time. A grant that was worth $1 million in 2000 would be worth much more today. The problem is that today, $1 million is still being paid out. So if the professor decides to give a lot more money to his students, he may compromise some of his research activities or he may have to make choices about research programming.

I think there's a link: If the awards are indexed, then the research grants to the faculty in our universities should be indexed as well.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I agree. I think the balance needs to be much greater. You hit a really good point there.

Also, you talked about the funding. Of course, the 2023 budget did not increase the funding at all. It missed your several asks. For how many years have you been asking for this increase to post-grads?

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

The Canadian Association for Graduate Studies has been asking for an increase in scholarships since 2017. It's making this request as part of the pre-budget consultations.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

You've been asking for six years.

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

Yes.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

It still wasn't addressed this year.

[Philippe-Edwin Bélanger]

That's right.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Among all the money that's been spent, that's interesting.

Ms. Mbuya-Bienge, you said that immigrants come in and seem surprised. They want to come to Canada, but then they're surprised; they're taken aback. Why are they surprised? What is the most shocking thing they find when they come to Canada?

[Cynthia Mbuya-Bienge]

I will speak about the members of the union I represent, because I know their situation best.

Not all international students have access to funding. Grant research funding is only available to the cream of the crop, whether it's Canadian or international. Federal government scholarships are available for international students to come to Canada, but only a small fraction of them have access to them.

Upon arrival in Canada, other students face not only the challenges of adapting to a new culture and education system, but also the lack of available support. Again, international students contribute a great deal to university funding, but don't receive the same level of contribution from universities. This would allow them to grow in the Canadian education system.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

You mentioned in your comments before—and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth—that they were surprised. They don't have the supports. Obviously, they were misled, they figure. They're surprised by something.

This is basically a federal application, so where was the miscommunication? Where did they get misinformed? Why were they so surprised? Whose responsibility is that? Is it the federal government's?