Science and Research Committee on June 13th, 2023

[Marc Johnson]

It's not just about these specific students who are receiving these scholarships and fellowships. Those scholarships and fellowships are setting the level that most universities set their stipends at. For example, if NSERC keeps their master scholarships at $17,500, most universities are going to aim for the minimum.

I was just here in Winnipeg at a conference—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry, but we're out of time. We're going to have to move on to our next questioner.

Thank you for that.

Mr. Lobb, you have five minutes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thanks very much.

My first questions are for Mr. Colterjohn.

Thanks for coming today.

The area you are studying is great. I think 20 years ago there wasn't very much research done in the nuclear field at all.

You stated that you were doing some research in the small modular reactor field. Is there any company or entity providing any sort of subsidy to you in your research funding to help do what you need to do, or is it all what you receive through the university and through grants?

[Colin Colterjohn]

That sort of funding is usually directed towards a research group, which is led by a supervisor, and the supervisors will then allocate those funds as they can. Unlike general graduate scholarships, however, those funds, at least in my experience and to the best of my knowledge, are very often used directly for research purposes. They can't be allocated to graduate students for general spending or personal spending.

The NWMO is very active with my research group because a big part of our research looks at nuclear waste. Much of our funding comes from them, but none of it is allocated to the students outside of research-related purposes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

You mentioned NWMO. Do you think it's maybe in the economic interests of some of these companies, like Westinghouse or OPG or RIVA Solutions or anyone you want to throw out there, that they provide direct financial compensation to someone like you for the betterment of the industry and the betterment of the sector? What do you think?

[Colin Colterjohn]

My answer likely has a very obvious bias, but I do think it would be in their interest overall to do so.

I have spoken with groups like CNL, which have approached me when I've given seminars or conferences asking when I'm likely to graduate, when I might be coming into the workforce. My response is that I would be very interested in working for a group like them when I'm done, but I want to finish my Ph.D. Best-case scenario, I'm two years away from working for them. However, if there is work they can give me that coincides or goes well with my current research, I would be very interested in taking it on, so that there is a relationship forming there and it could be lucrative for me as well.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Maybe I'm naive in the way I'm looking at it, but we have this big system. Everybody comes to this committee and says, “Hey, fix our problem”, but they are kind of the problem, in my mind. I ask why they would have a guy working at a bar—he's probably really good at his job at the bar—when he could go work for Westinghouse or OPG on the side instead and perfect the SMR?

I have nothing against working at a bar. That's great, but you're a Ph.D.

What do you think about that?

[Colin Colterjohn]

I completely agree. If it were to be the option between working in the industry, which I see to be my future career, and working at the bar.... I obviously love my current jobs, but I'll take the one that will build me towards a more successful career. I completely agree that there should be some incentive for these companies to subsidize the graduate research, if such an avenue could be made possible.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Just building on that, where do you see the downside? Where do you see in the big blobby system, from the top right down to where you are, that the improvements need to be made?

[Colin Colterjohn]

I think there could be more direct action between the government funding groups and the students themselves.

Most of the funding right now seems to be done through the university, then allocated to a research group and then allocated to a student. That's not to say anything negative about my research group, professor or university, but I think between professors not necessarily seeing the actual financial need a lot of students have.... There's some degree of “lost in translation”, as I referred to before, with funds that are allocated not being used at all.

If there were more direct communication between graduate students and these funding bodies, the funding could be used better. More of the existing funding could be used more effectively.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

That's a great point, and I think that should be a major theme in our study. There's way too much bureaucracy. It's fine for the universities that come to us and want more money, but they have to find a way to cut out all these layers that don't add any value to the research you're doing.

[Colin Colterjohn]

I agree. I think things fall through the cracks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you, both.

Now, we go online to Mr. Collins for five minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to both of the witnesses for their appearance today at committee.

I'm going to start with Mr. Colterjohn.

He touched on the housing issue here in Hamilton. With both of us being from Hamilton, we know the wave of migration from the GTA to Hamilton has certainly impacted not just house prices—he referenced the challenges he experienced with his partner—but also the rental market. For students, then, who are primarily in the Westdale area in the west end of the city and who are looking for affordable accommodation, it becomes a real challenge.

Some of the questions I've asked previous witnesses relate to the same study around that whole issue of housing and how the federal government can assist with student housing. I know, Mr. Colterjohn, you may be familiar with McMaster opening, this fall, a postgrad residence in downtown Hamilton, right across the street or a stone's throw from city hall. It will house 600 grad students and assist with that whole issue of affordable housing. I think the university sees it as a kind of carrot.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, I raise a point of order.

Today's study is on graduate scholarships, not housing issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

We're looking at the overall costs, and cost of living was brought up by the Conservatives, as well, so let's continue on.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks for the help.

Mr. Chair, through you, my question to Mr. Colterjohn would be this: Are there ways and means by which we can assist with that affordability issue he referenced earlier? We've received some consistent recommendations as they relate to increasing the amount of assistance, scholarships or post-doctoral support, but if we're looking at that whole issue related to affordability.... I think my colleague MP Lauzon touched on that in terms of sports—the assistance we can provide as carrots, so to speak, to be more competitive.

How can we assist on the housing file with those who are looking at staying in the system and at the university for their postgraduate studies, but who see it as very expensive, as Mr. Colterjohn raised in his opening comment? I'm glad he raised it, because it's a consistent theme, not just here at this committee but also at others. How can we assist in terms of providing support for those experiencing the high inflationary costs and finding it very challenging to find an affordable place to live in and around the university precinct?

[Colin Colterjohn]

Thank you.

I have seen the graduate building going up in downtown Hamilton. I'm very happy McMaster decided to invest in this. I haven't looked into it. I can't speak to what the costs are for graduate students who are interested.

I think the number one thing.... It comes back to what I spoke about in a previous set of questions: direct funding from bodies to students. If it were made clear that there are funding opportunities for students to apply for, specifically with an emphasis on affordable living or subsidizing housing situations, that would be some of the best action that I, personally, as a grad student, could see the universities and governing bodies taking.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Colin.

Mr. Chair, I'll turn to Mr. Johnson for the international context.

Mr. Johnson, you compared the postgraduate support provided in the United States to what students are receiving here. What does it look like internationally, if we turn to Europe or other parts of the world, as it relates to financial support? I'm assuming those same gaps exist in comparison to.... Mr. Colterjohn talked earlier about his Japanese experience.

How does it compare to Europe and other parts of the world?

[Marc Johnson]

It does not look good for us is the simple answer. If you go to Germany, the U.K., Australia or any of the countries in Scandinavia, they are all paying much higher levels. Their entire systems have been increasing in recent years, because there's a race to try to own innovation and discoveries.

Most countries in the G7 are trying to race well above 3% of their total GDP to research and development, with a lot of that going into training of graduate students and post-docs. Canada's decreasing its investment in research and development. We're now tied for last in the G7 at 1.6%.

Wanting to get more industry here, going back to an earlier question, it's not going to happen if we are investing half as much as the other countries in the G7 that we're competing against. We are not competitive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you, both. Unfortunately, we're out of time.

We're now going to the two and a half minute rounds, starting with Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm also happy to talk about the issue of housing, specifically when it comes to affordability. Mr. Chair, do you know how many new investments the last federal budget made in housing? None. Same thing for graduate scholarships, with no new investments over the last 20 years.

I don't mind asking questions and going around in circles, but I really want us to talk about the subject at hand, which is graduate scholarships and postdoctoral fellowships.

The government sponsored the Bouchard report, which was released by the Advisory Panel on the Federal Research Support System. Recommendation 6 of the report calls for competitive support on the global stage for graduate students and postdoctoral fellows, thus recognizing their essential role as the future leaders of scientific innovation.

Mr. Johnson, do you think that meeting demands to support our sciences represents an acceptable minimum threshold to achieve an internationally competitive level of funding?

[Marc Johnson]

Our recommendations are the minimum if we would like to remain competitive. If we would like to be the leader, it would have to be higher.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Johnson, in the Bouchard report, the committee members, who are student researchers, stated that the scientific ecosystem is at a breaking point. Can you share your thoughts on the subject?

[Marc Johnson]

The system in Canada for research is absolutely in crisis. We are losing our talent every single day. We are not going to get them back unless we invest majorly in the system, particularly in trying to retain and attract graduate students and post-doctoral scholars, who are the future of innovation and discovery in Canada.