Science and Research Committee on June 13th, 2023

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

Thank you so much.

Let me raise two points. You mentioned two things that I think are so key.

One is how access to funding for graduate students, through the research grants or through graduate scholarships and fellowships, is really the way we're going to pursue an inclusive society. As you know, those from disadvantaged families and those from disadvantaged backgrounds are going to be the most easily discouraged by not having access and not having that support.

Clearly, we don't want a system in which the only Canadians who are able to continue into graduate school are those who come from advantaged families. We want to tap the entire pool of talent. In fact, that was why the scholarship and the fellowship programs were created—to really level the playing field and to give everyone the chance.

In building an inclusive society, we have to understand that being able to make it financially viable for the talented students is absolutely key. We can't make it an elite kind of preordained system. That is not what Canada is trying to do.

The second thing you alluded to is the added advantage for our students to be able to work in research projects. There are many things in that, quickly: learning about how to pursue original thinking; learning about creativity; learning about critical thinking; how to actually assess whether different strategies work in terms of advancing knowledge; sophisticated research skills; how to deal with obstacles when you meet them in your work; how to work in teams, which most of them will do when they finish graduate school; how to manage projects; how to balance accountability and efficiency, and so on, with the kind of discovery impulses that are needed—that creativity piece.

It's that rich array of those deep competencies that I think are required that explains why we need to financially ensure that talented Canadians have a chance to pursue graduate work and that we can become a magnet internationally, and thereby, we can build Canada as a successful 21st-century country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much.

Now for two and a half minutes, we go to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Johnson, Support Our Science previously told us that, according to a study, 38% of Canadian PhDs leave Canada to go and work abroad, mainly in the United States. They're looking for better research conditions in countries where governments decided to invest in research and development. Thirty-eight percent is a serious brain drain.

Mr. Gaffield, you said that, as a result, Canada was at risk of becoming a scientific colony. We invest in training high-level researchers, then we see them leave to create, innovate and invent elsewhere. We then become captives of foreign countries' goodwill in order to access the technology and innovation that will shape tomorrow's society.

Mr. Gaffield, what you said echoes a speech made in 1925 by Brother Marie‑Victorin, a man I deeply respect. He's one of the founders of ACFAS, l'Association francophone pour le savoir. I'd like to share a passage I read. It includes an excerpt from a speech given nearly a century ago, if you can imagine:

Sovereignty over knowledge is necessary for sovereignty over territory, the economy and national life: "We will never be a true nation until we stop being at the mercy of foreign capital, foreign expertise and foreign intellectuals; until we are our own masters through the possession of knowledge and the physical resources of our land and its flora and fauna."

What do you think of that statement?

[Dr. Chad Gaffield]

The Canada we created throughout the 19^th, 20^th and 21^st centuries prioritized training and education in a public societal context. Indeed, publicly investing in a key component of society is truly important, because it is the basis from which we can go further in the private sector and in the public sector. It's fundamental.

In fact, we created Canadian universities during the 19^th century, more or less. We brought in graduate students from abroad. Then, we decided we needed to develop that expertise within Canada itself. Now, the bar is even higher. In the 21^st century, we say that human capital is actually the highest priority.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you very much. We're getting the most out of our time.

Mr. Cannings, bring us home for two and a half minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Thanks, Dr. Murphy, for joining us from Ontario Tech University. I'm going to pick up on something you said about how Ontario Tech seeks to democratize education.

We often hear that education is the great equalizer, yet here we have a situation where, because of the stagnation of these scholarships, fellowships and other supports that students have been getting for the last 20 years, we are now selecting against students from lower-income families and other backgrounds who simply can't access education at these costs.

I wonder if you could comment on that. Why is this issue in the science and research world of Canada perhaps the most critical at this moment?

[Dr. Steven Murphy]

Thanks for the question. I think it's an important one.

Coming to you from the Durham region of the suburbs of Toronto, I can tell you that we disproportionately have students who are new Canadians. They are the first in their families to attend educational institutions. We do not have a lot of entitlement, or we have virtually none.

I can tell you in those situations.... We just came through convocation last week. I hear stories all the time of our young people who want to go into graduate programs and need to take time off to get enough money in order to fund those studies. It's having a very real impact.

The future of our country surrounds me, and I'm uplifted by those students every day. What we need to do is figure out a way whereby we can invest in their futures, understanding that it's the collective Canadian future.

We're not moving electric vehicles further, we're not doing things with quantum and we're not tackling climate change unless we have all of the most brilliant minds, and if we're truly committed to diversity, we have to see that there's an economic lens on this.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

To finish quickly, you also mentioned that this money flows directly to students, so it would bypass some of the bureaucracy that Mr. Lobb was mentioning. This money goes to the people who need it and stays within the community.

[Dr. Steven Murphy]

I think that's really important.

I think that universities are fair game for saying we have too much bureaucracy, but on the research front, it's a critical point to understand that research comes into universities as restricted funds. When it comes from the tri-council, it is solely for the use of the principal investigator who won that. When it comes in for students under scholarships, it can solely be used for scholarships. It is not like tuition funding or grant funding, which we have a greater discretion over.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

That's great.

Thank you to both of our witnesses for inspirational testimony and great answers to our questions. I know that is going to help us in our study. Thank you for taking the time. As you mentioned, convocation season is a busy time for both of you. Thank you for your testimony. If there's any more information, of course, please submit it to the clerk in writing, and we'll make that part of our review as we go forward.

I have a couple of reminders before we adjourn.

Witness lists are due at the end of the day today for the study on Canadian research partnerships with entities connected to the People's Republic of China. We'll begin that study on Tuesday, so get those witness lists in by the end of the day today.

Also, we'll be meeting on Thursday, June 15, to resume this study on the Government of Canada's graduate scholarship and post-doctoral fellowship programs. We have our last witnesses lined up for two panels for that.

Is it the will of the committee to adjourn?

[An hon. member]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Nobody is fighting me.

We'll adjourn. Thank you very much.