Evidence of meeting #50 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Do you think there's also the risk, which we've heard is true in some situations, that these graduate scholarships and fellowships from the federal government are setting the bar for investigators and departments who are topping up or paying students through other means?
Chief Executive Officer, Mitacs
Oh, absolutely. You have to increase graduate student support across the board.
We started up an international program of bringing students to Canada quite a long time ago. The initial target was Indian Institutes of Technology students, hoping to keep them in Canada as graduate students. Well, they were getting offers from Stanford and even state universities in the United States that were double and triple what they could get in Canada. They never came to Canada for graduate work. They could get into top American universities. That's a challenge, even on the international side.
Liberal
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for coming today.
I'll start off with you, Dr. Novog. You mentioned that there's a program from France whereby students come over and get educated here. Do they all go back, or do some of them stay here? How does that program work?
Professor, Department of Engineering Physics, McMaster University, As an Individual
A majority of them go back. The French government or their local governments provide the funding for their living expenses to come here and collaborate on research with students. Most then go back. We have kept a couple over my 15 years here, but it's a rare occurrence.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Okay.
Dr. Hranilovic, you mentioned you are also doing housing there for students. Was there federal funding for this program or not? How much was there?
Vice-Provost and Dean of Graduate Studies, McMaster University
We're building the first graduate student residence on campus. It's just off campus. It's in downtown Hamilton. It's a 644-bed facility. It is built under a P3 partnership. There is no provincial or federal support for that construction, as it stands. It is a mechanism by which we, as an institution, will satisfy our obligation to our students by providing them with high-quality housing.
I can also say that we are embarking on other residence programs at the undergraduate level, though it's not the mandate of this committee. It's not just to offer competitive advantage by enabling all first-year incoming undergraduate students to have a place to live on campus. It's also an issue of quality of life and quality of study that we, as an institution, take seriously.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Implementing that program takes one more pressure from them—they know they at least have a place to stay. I know it's not free, either. There is a charge to that.
Do you feel this also impacts their studies to some degree, when they're either having to borrow money and be under pressure that way, or having a job outside school?
Vice-Provost and Dean of Graduate Studies, McMaster University
It depends on the context. If you're a domestic student from out of province and you don't have a local safety net, yes, you are eligible for some NSERC or other tri-council grants. It takes pressure off them. In order to have a residence space.... They're sure that it's high-quality housing, that it's available to them and that it's not going to increase for the duration of their lease.
For international students, I think it's even more important, because we are not requiring a credit check. We are allowing them to have access to this high-quality housing without going through something a typical landlord would do, given that they have a unique relationship with us, as students.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Okay. Thank you.
Dr. Hepburn, you're saying you're bringing in international students, and it's a program that is working not too badly.
What is our retention rate, though, for these students staying in Canada versus going back to their countries?
Chief Executive Officer, Mitacs
We have two international programs.
One is for researcher mobility, where there is no expectation. This is to support international research collaborations at the graduate and post-doctorate levels.
However, we have a large program for bringing students to Canada before their senior year. The goal there is to retain them in Canada as Ph.D. students. The retention rate for those is about 20%, which.... Whether or not that is several hundred students who otherwise would not come to Canada, I can't say, but the retention rate is about 20% for having those students registered as graduate students in Canada.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Therefore, it's actually quite low when you're trying to build a country that has great innovation and technology ahead of it. It doesn't seem as if we're getting the supports we need to retain these students.
Chief Executive Officer, Mitacs
Yes, I think that's right.
This is a competitive program. We bring about 2,000 students to Canada. We have about 2,000 in the country now. By the way, about a hundred of them are Ukrainian students. We have an agreement with the Ukrainian government to bring students to Canada.
Obviously, those students from around the world are very highly qualified. They can get offers of graduate admission in top American universities, where the stipends are higher.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
That's something we definitely need to work on.
Do you feel the government has a good plan in place, or is it just flying by the seat of its pants when dealing with research students?
Chief Executive Officer, Mitacs
I'll be careful in my answer. I'm heavily supported by government.
My understanding is that the Bouchard report will have an impact. It will hopefully have an impact on graduate student support. It's not up to me to try to figure out why there was no increased graduate student support in the most recent budget. There needs to be. That's very clear.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Okay.
Would Dr. Novog or Dr. Hranilovic wish to answer that question?
Do you feel the government has a good plan in place? What areas do you think it could improve upon?
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Yes, maybe we can go in writing on that.
Thank you, Mr. Soroka.
Now, it's over to Mr. Sousa for five minutes.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, all, for participating in today's discussion.
It's a complex issue. I think it's understood that the government is a strong supporter of and contributor to the industry, academically, venture-wise and innovation-wise—even in the nuclear industry. I recall that the previous government did away with support for atomic energy, which is a big part of our nuclear industry. It ended up falling behind as a result of the lack of support provided. It is essential for us to support Canadian innovation today in order to continue the work of Dr. Novog and others.
The complexity of the situation is also one of partnership. I appreciate some of the discussions we're all having.
Dr. Hepburn, you talk a lot about the private sector.
Dr. Novog, tell me this: Are you being supported by the private sector?
Professor, Department of Engineering Physics, McMaster University, As an Individual
Yes. I want to take the opportunity to thank NSERC and the CFI.
I've had a long career in academia, and I'd say I've been very well supported from the research side. I partner quite often with utilities in Ontario and federal government agencies like AECL, and I get funding support from NRCAN and other places. I have a wealthy and diverse set of funding. I think it helps my students to gain employment through those contacts and through those networks.
The problem is there's a group of students who are at the very top and will get the funding of $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 or whatever they pull in, but there's a group of funding—I don't mean to use the term loosely—that is the have-nots and doesn't have those top-name scholarships. Sometimes those are the people who will evolve and grow to be the superstars. Those are the people I think we need to support. We need to look at how we can move them above the poverty line so that they can focus on their studies and their leadership potential.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
We don't want anybody under the poverty line. We want to be able to support, where possible, by a collection of means. We have affordable housing supports and other things we're doing to provide some of that.
As students—I and others—we all struggled when we were starting off. Young people today, as they were previously.... It's not necessarily easy, but the potential is so much greater after they take on the tremendous work you provide for them, essentially.
My Ph.D. nephew had a tough time, but he became an associate professor. He did what was necessary. He's now bought a house. He's doing very well. He's expanded his wealth of opportunity while still staying in the academic world, by partnering a lot with business.
We haven't heard much from Dr. Sadeghi. You mentioned in your testimony that you went to UCLA. You did some work there and you benefited from some Canadian support. In that time that you went to UCLA, you were able to expand yourself.
What are the tuition and the costs of going to UCLA versus going to McMaster University?
Associate Professor, Chemistry and Chemical Biology, As an Individual
I was there as a post-doc and a faculty member, not as a student.
The tuition is significantly higher, especially for international students in the U.S. Much like here in Canada, it's mostly equalized through stipends provided to students.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
I appreciate that. I think it's important to note there is some equalization and there are some supports in order to compete internationally. Canada has to do its best.
I think, Dr. Hepburn, you talked about the talent supply and the need to nurture that talent supply by enabling those great brains and students being nurtured in Canada to remain in Canada.
Can you tell me how much of that is being lost? Is there a brain drain going on?
Chief Executive Officer, Mitacs
There is a brain drain going on in terms of the very best students, especially in high-demand fields. They will go where the very best jobs are. The very best jobs, currently, are south of the border, in terms of pay, in terms of opportunity and in terms of the level of excitement—