Science and Research Committee on Sept. 20th, 2023

[Dr. Tracy Smith-Carrier]

Yes. In terms of the pay equity studies that a number of institutions have taken on, several have made the salary adjustments that Dr. Penner mentioned earlier. Some of them have actually done it by giving a flat rate increase of a certain amount to all women faculty, and others have done some sort of a percentage increase. The issue, of course, is that some of them haven't embedded them within the pay structure. It's like a one-off payment, but that doesn't get it embedded into your regular salary moving forward. You're going to have to keep adjusting over time because you haven't embedded it into the pay structure.

None of those interventions thus far, or very few, have been so meaningful as to actually close the gap. They're usually just a portion of what would be necessary, so you have to keep adjusting over time and, of course, as time goes on, the gap keeps widening and it gets more expensive to keep trying to address it. If they actually were meaningfully addressing it and permanently trying to close it.... Obviously, that's not to say that we wouldn't need to keep addressing it. As long as this sexism is pervasive in society, we'll have to keep addressing it, but taking meaningful steps to close the gap is what we're suggesting is necessary.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Could I just ask for a little more clarity? I think what we're talking about here is a systemic bias. Very clearly, there is systemic racism in the institutions, and we see this present in many institutions. It's built right in.

How do we address that from a behavioural standpoint when there are so many decisions that are being made? There are upward mobility decisions or promotional decisions that are being made. There are obviously hiring decisions. I was involved in post-secondary institutions, quite a number of them, and often you progress from being a student to being a researcher. You go through different degrees and you eventually get hired on as faculty. Then, of course, you're moving through a whole system thereafter of promotional opportunities as you earn them.

What you're saying, or what you've said today, is that there are forces that are working against women, racialized women in particular, and that those biases are there. How do we change the behaviour in those organizations?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

I'm sorry, but we're going to have to leave it there because we've used up the time on the question. However, if there is an answer that you can provide to the clerk, that would be helpful.

For two minutes now, we have Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

Mr. Blanchette‑Joncas, the floor is yours.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll get right to it. I want to be in solution mode. I'd like the witnesses to tell us about other possible solutions.

What tools could the federal government use to address the pay inequity that currently exists in university institutions?

[Marcie Penner]

I think one of the things, as a first step, is providing information about the problem. The more we understand the problem, the more we can address it. By providing that information out of the census data.... There's also UCASS data that could provide that information. Asking institutions to provide that information and make it public would be a good first step. It's unclear which programs and policies will meaningfully tackle this issue, so that's where research is currently under way to try to answer that question.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

Would other witnesses like to talk to us about their potential solutions and some real tools the federal government could use to intervene in this matter?

[Dina Al-khooly]

I will just add to my point about work-integrated learning. It sounds like it is something that other studies have discussed. The impacts of exploring academia on folks who are experiencing poverty cannot be overstated; it's an impossible trajectory for someone who is coming from a place of economic insecurity. It's about increasing those stipends for graduate students and funding work-integrated learning programs for people from low-income communities, particularly for racialized communities and women who are coming from racialized communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

These are great answers. Congratulations on the short time in getting those out.

Now, for the final two minutes, we'll go to Mr. Cannings.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'll just quickly ask Dr. Smith-Carrier and Dr. Penner if there is anything in their research about some hopeful trend. I think the extent to which this is going on now is surprising to all of us, but is there a trend as we are getting more women at higher levels? You talked about pay gaps with deans, but I have women friends who are deans and women friends who are presidents of universities. Is there any trend that this process will result in a lessening pay gap when we have those hiring panels, perhaps with more women?

[Marcie Penner]

I would say that one area in which we see hope is that the representation—predominately at the lower ranks, but also rising—of women, indigenous faculty and racialized faculty has grown, so that's one area in which we see improvements. The Momani et al. study showed that the gaps are actually widening instead of narrowing, so that's an area that's of more concern. In terms of representation, which is part of the solution but not sufficient, we do see some improvement.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thanks. I'll leave it there.

I'm a bit disappointed to hear that, but hopefully things will change.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lloyd Longfield]

Thank you. The truth hurts sometimes, but thank you to Dr. Penner, Dr. Smith-Carrier and Dina Al-khooly for joining us and for providing excellent testimony.

Thank you to the members for their questions. It's a really good study to be rolling up our sleeves on.

There are a couple of housekeeping items before we leave. Should the committee wish to travel during the winter 2024 period, we have a deadline of November 10. If that's desired, think about that and we can discuss further to ensure that we get a detailed budget put together for travel. Maybe we can pick that up next week.

Also, the clerk will provide a deadline in the coming weeks for the witness list for the study on indigenous knowledge, so that will be moving forward. Think about whom you can bring to the table on that.

On Monday, September 25, 2023, we're going to be resuming our studies on both topics we had today. On Monday as well, there's a Support Our Science event in room 306 of the Valour Building from 5:30 to 7 p.m. It starts at 5 p.m., but we'll be in committee until 5:30, so consider that in your planning as well.

Thank you again to everybody for being part of this.

Is it the will of the committee to adjourn? Okay. Thank you.

Safe travels. We'll see you next week.